Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:23 am Post subject: How to cure a double buzz
This can be very annoying, it happens to me from time to time, and I believe it is caused by some kind of unbalanced tension in the embouchure muscles. Mine just goes away eventually and I find doing pedal tones helps.
The fact that it is less evident in the upper register is probably due the tension being masked by the tension used to create the higher pitch embouchure.
There will be many suggestions coming in response to this mostly aimed at relaxing.
I would also strongly suggest taking a look at an excellent thread, in the Fundamentals Forum entitled "19/30s exercise explained', currently on Page 2.
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 7770 Location: Des Moines, IA area
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:32 am Post subject:
It's often just a matter of firming up the lower lip slightly, especially if you're experiencing the problems below, say, Middle C. (That would be the first ledger below the staff.) Try pushing forward very slightly with your jaw or thinking about gripping where the mouthpiece outer edge contacts the lips. Nothing radical, just a bit. Many times we get lazy and allow the lower lip to loosen its seal against the bottom teeth. Good luck.
Joined: 15 Sep 2004 Posts: 3131 Location: West Virginia
Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:37 am Post subject:
I get this sometimes too. What works for me is to play a G second line. As your playing it, pull the mouthpiece away from your chops while intensifying the buzz to sound a fourth high (C). Do this three or four times and for some reason it firms the corners and gets things into focus. Remember everything with the trumpet needs to be thought of in a forward motion!!!
Best to you.... _________________ Freelance Performer/Teacher WV, PA, MD, and OH http://www.neil-king.com
Yamaha NY Bb, Adams F1 Flugelhorn, Schilke P5-4, Stomvi Eb/D Elite, Bach C 229 bell 25A, York Monarch cornet.
For me, I get it when I haven't been regularly practicing, when I am putting too much pressure on the upper lip and not enough on the lower, and when my lower lip is too relaxed and not drawing in toward center enough.
The pencil exercise along with lip buzzing cures it for me. And practice time. I start with low volume playing of flexibility studies, and I do it on flugelhorn first.
Brian _________________ Brian A. Douglas
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper
There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:08 am Post subject:
That's a frustrating problem that I've personally dealt with a couple of times. For me, the solutions were different each time. There are several different things that can cause or contribute to a double buzz and without being able to watch you play in person it's really hard for any of us to give you targeted advice. Sometimes what helps fix one type of double buzz will make the problem worse, so it really would be best if you can meet up with a knowledgeable teacher.
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:32 am Post subject: How to cure a double buzz
I am skeptical at the idea of trying to manipulate the lips to eliminate a double buzz e.g. "tightening the lower lip" as has been suggested.
My way out of it is to go back to some level of fundamental playing, pedal tones, soft playing - I hesitate to be specific as the causes and forms of a double buzz may be many and varied between individuals.
The lips already 'know' how to buzz correctly - what one needs to do, is to go back to a basic 'baseline' and work up from there thereby coaxing the lips back into doing what they already 'know'.
Joined: 25 Aug 2002 Posts: 727 Location: Asheville, NC
Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 12:08 pm Post subject:
Please pardon me picking nits with your post, Jim.
Quote:
I am skeptical at the idea of trying to manipulate the lips to eliminate a double buzz e.g. "tightening the lower lip" as has been suggested.
While I wouldn't go so far as to suggest this is the original poster's issue, a weak lower lip is a fairly common cause of a double buzz. Firming my lower lip and developing the muscular strength and endurance to hold it there did do the trick for one of my double buzzes.
Quote:
My way out of it is to go back to some level of fundamental playing, pedal tones, soft playing - I hesitate to be specific as the causes and forms of a double buzz may be many and varied between individuals.
We're definitely in agreement about the later part of your quote above, but I generally would recommend trumpet players with a double buzz avoid practicing pedal tones. It's very easy for players to do them in such a way as to make their double buzz worse. Depending on your physical anatomy/embouchure type, pedal tones may work against you anyway.
Quote:
The lips already 'know' how to buzz correctly - what one needs to do, is to go back to a basic 'baseline' and work up from there thereby coaxing the lips back into doing what they already 'know'.
Yeah, I think I get your point, but I don't think that brass playing is anything inherently "natural" about it. Case in point, our body already "knows" how to breath correctly for brass playing, but it also "knows" how to breath in ways that are equally natural (and necessary for some activities), but hinder good brass playing. The embouchure is similar. Unconscious manipulation of your lips can be hit or miss and sometimes lead to issues (like a double buzz, or smile embouchure for another example).
But I would agree that technique analysis should serve the music and that the goal is to take care of mechanics to that we can let the body play "naturally" and put our attention on the expression.
Joined: 07 Sep 2008 Posts: 176 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 8:20 am Post subject:
i agree with Shofarguy. I sometimes get a double buzz when i start fatiguing...usually from putting using too much pressure....Can't really say if its upper or lower lip, because i generally focus on just backing off and reducing the total amount of pressure i use. I don't pay it much attention. Playing softer usually works for me. _________________ Harrelson 907 2005
Getzen eterna Flugel 2006
J.W Pepper cornet
For me the solution is always increase the airflow into your horn just a bit (not much of a dynamic change). If that doesn't work, I play in a different partial for a couple minutes and try what I was doing again. _________________ ~Foster Robertson
Joined: 07 Mar 2011 Posts: 14 Location: St. Louis, MO
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:52 pm Post subject: double buzz
I think the double buzz is fatigue as has been noted. When you reach that point, typically you've resorted to some bad habits to compensate and continue to play. Try to keep in mind what works best for you in your specific type of embouchure. Think about it while you rest! Come back softly.
Joined: 21 Oct 2003 Posts: 704 Location: Pennsylvania
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:41 pm Post subject:
personally, I've been trying to cultivate mine for a while. it's the coolest thing when it's really working I can play octaves.
It is easier to get if I'm a little tired, and if i want to 'fix' it, it is in the lower lip which is rolled inside out just a bit. so I just bring it back in, and it's normal.
Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 7023 Location: South Alabama
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:47 am Post subject:
PiCK Kanstul wrote:
personally, I've been trying to cultivate mine for a while. it's the coolest thing when it's really working I can play octaves.
It is easier to get if I'm a little tired, and if i want to 'fix' it, it is in the lower lip which is rolled inside out just a bit. so I just bring it back in, and it's normal.
For the developed player, it is called multiphonics when you can do it on demand, for the rest of us hacks it is an uncontrollable annoyance.
For the perpetual beginner such as myself, it is just one of the stages to endure until muscle memory gets better. Soft playing and long tones will get me through it quicker than anything else.
Of the roughly 20 times I have started from scratch over the past 8 years, not once have I avoided the double buzz. It may last a couple days, it may last a week. It may only show up when I'm tired, or may be a constant companion every time I play a note.
The one thing I do know about it is, it is temporary. It will eventually go away as I develop control and endurance, and I view it as simply an indicator of transition. _________________ Since all other motives—fame, money, power, even honor—are thrown out the window the moment I pick up that instrument..... I play because I love doing it, even when the results are disappointing. In short, I do it to do it.” Wayne Booth
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:21 am Post subject:
It was strain that caused this for me, playing hard without a warm up.What worked for me was practicing very soft with a tight mute(practice or Harmon mutes) for 2 or 3 days with lots of rests.This will put less strain on the lips,and help keep them from falling into the cup.
Start sounding good... like really good. It'll go away... don't focus on it, just focus on the beautiful sound.
Everybody is different so the suggestions that people have physically should be taken with a grain of salt. What is equal for everybody is that when they are sounding good, things are correct. Since we don't know what is correct (unless you could magically fell all the muscles in your body and to what degree they are working), we know when everything is in harmony by the quality of sound we are producing.
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:21 am Post subject: Re: How to cure a double buzz
jimh46 wrote:
I am skeptical at the idea of trying to manipulate the lips to eliminate a double buzz e.g. "tightening the lower lip" as has been suggested.
My way out of it is to go back to some level of fundamental playing, pedal tones, soft playing - I hesitate to be specific as the causes and forms of a double buzz may be many and varied between individuals.
The lips already 'know' how to buzz correctly - what one needs to do, is to go back to a basic 'baseline' and work up from there thereby coaxing the lips back into doing what they already 'know'.
Regards
Jim
Actually "pedaltones" can be practices in lots of ways, many trumpet players that came to me with problems like double buzz got rid of their problems just by stoping playing pedals for a while, after that they either did not take up the pedals or changed the way of doing them.
Some lips know how to buzz corectly, by chance I would say, some lips has to learn how to buzz correctly.
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