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Vintage vs. Modern



 
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nick8801
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Joined: 22 Dec 2009
Posts: 125
Location: NJ

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:51 am    Post subject: Vintage vs. Modern Reply with quote

What type of mouthpiece do you guys play? I love how consistent modern pieces are, and there have obviously been some major improvements in the science of rim/cup/throat/backbore combinations, but there is something really special about the inconsistencies in the older pieces. Each one is a little different, and it becomes more personal in my opinion. Most recently, I have been using this New York Bach (pre Mt Vernon) that just has the sweetest tone in the world. It is super comfortable too! Anyone else out there have a special older piece that nothing new seems to compare to?
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the subject of this thread and I hope some more guys respond. All of my mouthpieces are fairly new to brand new designs. The oldest one I use is a Kanstul modular and it is only two or three years old.

I actually rediscovered it a week or two ago. It's a B3D top with a #24 back bore which I had Jim New bore out to a #22 throat. It works and sounds great on my Benge and gives it a very alive and brilliant sound without being harsh, thin or strident.

The cup and rim are very similar to my 5-L, but with a tad larger diameter. The tighter back bore and larger throat make it play almost the same, too. The sound has fewer low frequencies than my 5-O or 5-L produce and that seems to be more in character with the Benge sound.

When I first got this mouthpiece, I would bottom out on it part way through an engagement, so I went for something with more room. Since that time, I've learned to play with more resonance and less brute force, so I seem to be able to play a shallow piece like this without compromise now.

Though the #117 back bore sounds better than the #24 on my Wild Thing and works well in the Benge, too, there's really nothing to be gained by using it with the Benge. I'd rather use the 5X in a trumpet section than as a solo voice and the #24 back bore does that better in that horn, I think.

Brian
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Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an early Elkhart Bach 3C that is a fine mouthpiece. I've played trumpet on it for 20+ years (with various brief safaris with other pieces), and it does everything well - great intonation, good upper and lower registers, good endurance, nice sound, etc. About 10 years ago, I bought a new 3C for my cornet. It wasn't the same...the transition from rim to cup was shaped differently and the cup was more shallow. Hated the thing, and traded it for some other piece after trying it for a couple months. Anyway, I started looking for a Bach 3C cornet piece from the same era as the trumpet version I like so much, and finally found one. It's pretty much exactly like the trumpet version I have played all these years. Now, I don't play cornet much on a 3C, but when I want to use my cornet in a concert band setting in a mixed cornet/trumpet section, the 3C is just the thing, and it has the same great characteristics for me as the old trumpet 3C mouthpiece does.
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Mark Curry
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All of my personal pieces are relatively brand new (I keep tweaking designs).

BUT re the old "Cherries"

There's a Lot of things even guys like me aren't really sure about when it comes to the *why* the older pieces play- things that can and can't be measured.

Obviously, the measurements come into play. When I get a digitized scan of one of these older mpcs it's pretty easy to spot the inconsistencies in the design or manufacturing process.

1. Concentricity is the biggest issue.

A. Rim OD and ID. Are they concentric with each other?

B. Bore. is it concentric with the cup and rim? Backbore, is it concentric?

2. Manufacturing defects- sharp edges left unfinished, such as when a drill walks off-center, or a cup shaper leaves a gouge.

Most of the above problems could have been avoided had the center-drilling (and additional drills) been acceptably straight. Reamers and drills tend to follow the path created by the drilling (no matter how rigid they are).

Then there's finishing (buffing, polishing, plating). I suspect the "biggest" manufacturer uses a mass-finishing device to remove machining marks on their mouthpieces. In theory, this process is a great time and labor saver, but only if the proper media (composition and shape) and cycle time is employed. IMO, this is the biggest factor in the subtle inconsistencies we've all seen on their mouthpieces. Not to mention, color buffing the bejeezus out of them.

Finally, the "unknown" factors... How many times has this piece been dropped? The trace elements in the brass, the hardness, the age factor, how the shank grips the receiver, how many times has Charlier #2 been played, how much crud has permanently attached itself to the inside of the backbore...

I could go on (but I won't)

Sometimes it's the imperfections that make them play.

MC
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nick8801
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Joined: 22 Dec 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, thanks for the great relpy Mark! The Bach I was talking about before has for sure been dropped as I can see the shank has been repaired, and it also has the plier marks from where it was pulled from a trumpet who knows how long ago. The inner bite is super soft, almost Schilke like. Also the contours on the shape of the blank are rounded instead of squared off, which make s me think it was totally handmade. Whatever history is behind this piece it comes together just perfect! Now heres the million dollar question...Is is possible to make an exact replica? Hmmmmm.
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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been playing a Mt. Vernon 3C for a coupla years now, and it's by far the best sound I've had. It's drilled to 24, and has something like a 24 backbore. When I played 1-1/2C, I used either a Kanstul copy Mt. Vernon with an 87 backbore 27 drill, or a just post Mt.V Bach (vertical fraction) with 24 drill. The 2 oldies definitely have a sound. You can check out the 3C below.
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Ed Lee
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Joined: 14 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure we know the old mpcs were made a different way and as such the equpment wore out and caused much more variation, some better than others. What we have today in the transition is mostly a copy of some of the old ones ... and some of these are copies of the worst of the earlier ones still found in the factory since the best are now in player circulation.
My experience is with a Parduba mpc, one I acquired in the 50s and lost, and now a newer one mfr by Akright. My new one doesn't play as favorably as my original Parduba, but I make do.
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imperfections do make some of these pieces sound unique. Examples: my MV 10 1/2C. Wobbly fit in most of my horns, clearly just a skosh off center, plays beautifully (although in that cup size/volume, I prefer my Gustat 2 copy from Kanstul).

My old Giar. 10S. Off center, hard bite, plays like a million bucks. The new Kanstul copy of it plays great too, but has an easier bite, less grip. Sounds like Miller Lite commercial copy.

Last night I was A/B'ing my old 70's Bush W-2 against my newer Curry 3C., with a 24 drill on my C trumpet, and the Bush sounds fantastic, even with a light coating of god knows what in the backbore. Mark's piece is great too, but I may have drilled it out one notch too far for this horn!

And the princes of my old collectables, the Al Cass series, were made by hand over 40 years ago, and while the 2-28 I have is a little unstable, the 1-27 and the 3x4 are RIGHT on the money. Sometimes this business of working out the specs with a manufacturer pays off for new mpcs, but go into the drawer and try a few oldies. Not bad.
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VetPsychWars
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Location: Greenfield WI

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I waited to post but since it amuses me I'm playing my Buescher pieces with my Buescher horns. The more I play and the stronger I get, the easier it is to play these pieces. I have to admit I like the funky rim, with the high point on the outside.

That said, I have a bunch of Rudy Muck pieces I can't play and regret getting replated....

Tom
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qcm
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On trumpet I use a Schilke 14 on Bb and C for Classical work. For D/Eb and picc I use a Schilke 13B. Big Band a Schilke 12A.

Cornet, a Flip Oakes 5 or a Curry 5DC.

Flugel, a Schilke 13B,, although I'm getting one of Flip's Extreme mouthpieces soon.

-Dave
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Kanstuls, LA Benges and a Selmer picc.
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Axelip
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Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sometimes it's the imperfections that make them play.

That ought to be the motto for vintage instruments and gear, in general!!
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JeffM729
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Joined: 27 Dec 2004
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Location: Fleming Island, FL

PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My favorite old, vintage mouthpiece is the Jet Tone Severinsen, which I think came with the Severinsen trumpet I bought back in 1972 as it is marked Getzen on the rim. Not sure what makes it special, but perhaps it's because it does everything well. I've played just about everything on it at one time or another. It's a versatile and well balanced.

The shape is skeletonized and has little excess metal. Perhaps that creates a different response than heavier pieces of today. I'm sure the cup and rim could be replicated, but no one has that light of a blank anymore. Well, at least that I'm aware of. The only unusual feature is a small v cup at the entrance to the throat, otherwise it's a medium shallow C cup like so many others I've tried over the years.
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connloyalist
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 12:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mouthpiece I use is a Connstellation 5CW cornet mouthpiece. For trumpet I use it with an adapter (two adapters actually: a standard one and one with a larger shank to better accomodate the older Conn trumpets).

No telling when this particular 5CW was made, but Conn started making them in the early 1960's and I think MacMillan-Conn still had them in the 70's. Somehow or other it is "just right" for me. I have had copies made which are OK, but none of them have that goldilocks quality.

Regards, Christine
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got a NY (late 1930's) Bach 10 1/2 C a while back and had it gold plated by Bob Reeves. The NY Bach 10 1/2C's are different from the Mt. Vernon and Elkhart 10 1/2 C's in that the NY's seem shallower but have a bigger I.D., like an Elkhart 7 today. The throat is about a 25. The sound is big, warm, and opaque but can really kick too. Really lights up my 12B which is from the late 30's too.

I really enjoy playing the Mt. Vernon 10 1/2 C's which are rife on Ebay for 10-20 dollars. The sound is rich, compact, and mobile. Perfect for Bebop. The NY version is, for me, suited to Big Band swing era.
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nick8801
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Chapahi,
I have the same two pieces! My main piece is the NY 10 1/2c, and my backup is the Mt. Vernon. You're right on the money about the NY. It is actually quite a large feeling mouthpiece, and for me it blows wide open compared to the Mt Vernon. It does have that nice opaque character you described, but in the right horn, and with the right focus, it is a powerhouse! The Mt Vernon has a super compact feel, and really locks my chops into place. I like the dense sound the tighter backbore provides, and I find if I switch over to that one from the NY, I can really sit on the upper register. I also have a modern 10 1/2c which I really don't like at all. It actually has a really nice sound, but the bite is really sharp, and I find it uncomfortable.
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jhatpro
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone know if the Vintage Conn 18 cornet mouthpiece has a modern equivalent?
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