New Talent - Too Critical?

[Xenoman]

Do you think that we are too critical of today's new trumpet players or "traditional" jazz musicians in general for that matter?

I have read articles or posts where people are critical of new talent saying that they have not said anything that has not already been said, they sound too much like Miles, if you want to hear some real playing listen to (insert name of legend here), this player's arrangements sound just like Dukes... I could go on. Then in the same breath we complain that people are not supporting or listening to jazz in it's traditional form. Instead of tearing down new talent we should applaud them for not seeking the umbrella of "market mu$ic"...

I for one find much talent and potential (when measured to the standard bearers) in cats like Nicholas Payton, Russell Gunn, Roy Hargrove, Ingrid Jenson, Ryan Kisor, Irvin Mayfield, Jermey Pelt... I could go on. Also in my opinion you cannot play the trumpet without sounding like the players you admire and listen to. That is like me trying not to be like my father. Not going to happen. I have not been playing long but if I can get a voice similar to Lee Morgan's I know I'm well on my way to finding my own.

Just my thoughts. I'm sure you have yours and I'd love to hear them.


[ This Message was edited by: Xenoman on 2002-02-02 10:25 ]

[Emb_Enh]

Yes I agree!! ---too quick to criticise, the guys you mention there are fantastic players and I'm really greatful there is so much good music around---besides you picked on a fave. of mine Mr.Hargrove!!! --Wow!!!

Roddy o-iii<O
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[dbacon]

DB

[Xenoman]

[dbacon]

DB

[Xenoman]

[trickg]

Ok, I could be way off base on this one, but since jazz is a constantly changing thing, don't you have to take each recording and performance on it's own and for what it is in that moment in time. A recording is a snapshot of a moment in time in a studio. I don't know about anyone else, but it's always easier playing for a crowd and the crowd itself can have as much influence on the performance as everything else. A person would almost have to be at every gig for a while for a single player before you could really form a real opinion.

Just last night I was on a gig and one of the players who doesn't normally solo opened up with this incredible ride. It was way above what we usually hear from him, so does that all of a sudden make him a great soloist? Well, for that snapshot in time he sure as heck was. Overall? It's hard to say.

Even with classical music, you can hear the influences of earlier composers in a composer's work so of course we are going to hear influences of the older cats' music in the new soloists. Take each one for what they are and don't put too much into it.
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[mistrad37]

Here is a great couple of musicians from around here that have there own unique sound and play there own music:

Mark Busselli
Tim Hagans

Of course the list could go on forever, these are just a few that came to my mind right away. As far as I am concerned, every player needs to keep in touch with the roots of Jazz. Jazz is one of those special languages that can only truly be expressed by its creators. I do however feel that people can recreate the language in their own right. No one is ever going to play like bird, diz, miles, rollins, or any other great ever again. It was truly unique and innovational at the time. These days it seems like there hasn't been an innovation in the musical world since Pearl Jam and Nirvana in the early 90's. It is dissapointing that there hasn't been anymore than that. Hopefully Jazz will continue to live on, but that is another story.

[dbacon]

DB

[Xenoman]

[dbacon]

DB

[PH]

A lot of what Dave is talking about is the business of jazz and the marketing of jazz. Selling art like a commodity is never a happy marriage.

In the '70s and '80s Columbia was virtually the only major label (meaning with big pockets for budget) doing jazz. They felt that they needed to have a limited number of jazz artists assigned to their label and that these artists all needed to have a marketing angle. When that marketing angle was exhausted the shelf life had expired & they would cut that artist loose and get another and begin the promotion process again. When Wynton came along he was the most marketable thing Columbia had ever seen in jazz. He was young/gifted/black, articulate, and he could both play jazz and classical music well. They cut Woody loose from his contract to make room. A similar thing happened around the same time with Freddie and Columbia (making room for Terumasa Hino, if I recall).

Most people never think about the business aspects of jazz and jazz recording and how that shapes our perception of jazz history.

p.s. I was spending a good bit of time with Woody at that point in history. He never got over the emotional crush of being axed from Columbia. I think that that (plus a recent divorce and some other personal things) really fueled his return to drugs and began his decline that resulted in his eventual death.

Writing this makes me very sad. He was really a very nice guy at heart.

[ This Message was edited by: PH on 2002-02-04 20:06 ]

[dbacon]

DB

[barryj1]

Woody Shaw was one of the most radical trumpeters I heard back in the late 60's when I was stationed at a Naval Hospital in Yokuska Japan (during the Vietnam War). His recording with Horace Silver (Cape Verdean Blues) was so far ahead of its time as to totally reconfigure - Miles not withstanding - my understand of where modern jazz was heading.

Any younger trumpeters who have overlooked this jazz giant would do well to check out Wood's fine recordings. By the way, I believe Woody was 18 years old when he recorded with Horace Silver. When I was that age I was still struggling to get my chops together.

Barry

[ This Message was edited by: barryj1 on 2002-02-05 19:33 ]

[brenter]

Woody Shaw is, in my opinion, the last great innovator in jazz trumpet. Woody Shaw did exactly what a jazz musician is supposed to do. He not only mastered the traditions of jazz, but he also expanded on them as well. Long before Wynton came along, Woody Shaw stressed the importance of knowing and studying the traditions of jazz. I believe that Woody named his son after Louis Armstrong. In an interview I read, he was asked how he learned to play like he did. His response was that you needed to have a foundation, and further stated that bebop is the foundation of modern jazz. When I hear him play, it's obvious that he knows the language of bebop, even though when you analyze his solos, his lines often don't correlate with the changes being played. He created a language all his own, which is something very few players really do.

It's just a shame that someone like Woody Shaw (or for that matter, Kenny Dorham or Fats Navarro) is so respected by his peers while at the same time is ignored by just about everyone else.

[dbacon]

DB

[brenter]

Hey Dave:

Was there a name to the Fats CD that you saw? I didn't see anything that was new, maybe I missed it. There's also a Charlie Parker CD called, "Bird and Bebop" on Rhino records that has Fats playing. It was supposedly recorded live one week before he died. The sound quality is poor, but Fats' playing is outstanding. Worth getting if you don't have it!

Brent

[Quadruple C]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 14:26 ]

[boricuatrumpet]

to everyone that like the old and the new about jazz. i just gotta say that these cats that play the jazz for today are the ones who changed the way people listen to jazz. hold on let me make it clear. how young people listen to jazz. i never knew how many youngins listen to jazz. the jazz from the golden days was good, the best. that was the begging of a new style of music. the fathers of the jazz were the ones who changed the style of just the regular big band jazz. came up with styles way ahead of their time. the one and only misled davis was the one who created the fast tempo bebop style. using the modal chords. that was to fast for that time, but the cat made dough. he made jazz what it is today. now with the new talents of today these cats gave the jazz we listen today a spark, somthinf different, something thatwill connect to the young ones. im probably talking like if im old, but i am only 19.
these new cats changed the style of a bebop, changed the modal chords.
the group called the roots, they invented a different style of jazz to connect with the young cats of today. they came up with the concept of acid jazz. mixng the jazz with the hip hop. mostly vocal lyrics, but just the style of having jazz and hip hop together was of the hook. these cats are from philly. they came out to the scene in the mid 90's and they still kick it today.
nicholas payton is another young cat who's style of playing is different from way back of the old days. he has that new orleans style mixed with the bebop style. you can tell the style sounds new orleans but you can also tell that the style has the hard core bebop style as well.
another trumpet player that has playing since the 70's but he got his breakthrough in the u.s.a in the 90's, is arturo sandoval. he changed the whole style of latin jazz. his idle was dizzy gillespie, but he took dizzy's style of latin jazz and took another step. changing the kick of it and put that up tempo, latin bebop styles, using synthesizers, playing 3 or 4 instruments like his trumpet. piano, timbales, bass, and sometimes the synthesizer. this cat has the music high even when he is not playing. i had the opportunity to see my idle and i got to see him do all of that. he is the man for the latin jazz scene and also classical. he has changed how we listen to every type of styles of music. from jazz to his famous style of latin jazz to the style of ballads to salsa to hip hop. yes hip hop, but the album hasnt come out. one love to the musicians in the world, one love and one life.
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[dbacon]

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