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New Talent - Too Critical?


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dbacon
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2002 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB

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pfrank
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2002 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that sometimes we have to wait a few years before coming to a conclusion about new music. Many musicians and composers we regard as icons today were put down by critics durring their times. Some who are praised durring their time turned out to be non-endurring. Quality in all arts seems to rise to the surface eventually. (I wish Hollywood money people would get that message!) Stravinski's Right of Spring, Beethoven's 9th, Ornette Coleman etc. (there are many examples) were hated at first. Condemed as being incomprehensible, even evil. While Ornette is still difficult for many people to listen to, his alto style and "harmolodics" have creeped into TV music, even! It's part of the culture now.
I think that there is great music happening Now, it's breakin out all over the place. There are at least two idioms I think are vital and happening nowadays:
a. Technology based dance music i.e. techno, jungle, ambient, acid jazz etc. There is work there for trumpet players (like Tim Hagans latest CDs), and it's allot of fun to do. There's plenty of rest time between licks, ha ha.
b. The neo-retro movement. Swing was IN last year. The Grammie record of the year: soundtrack to a movie, Brother Where... Space-Aged-Bachelor-Pad music. Esquavel! I play in a band that combines Gypsy brass band with Klezmer and Older Americana styles, and audiences Love it! (we're nominated for a Boston Music Award this year in the category of "roots rock")
Fortunatly in Boston we have some great radio stations. Jazz on the MIT station in the morning and on the Emerson Col. station in the afternoon. I first heard Warren Vache while morning commuting. I had to sit in the car to see who it was that had That sound! WZBC (Boston College's station) has a slot every night from 8 till midnight called "No Commercial Potential" (NCP). I hear almost everything there eventually. These radio stations are my link-up with a whole world of exciting creativity that is happening now!
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB

Last edited by dbacon on Sun Jun 19, 2022 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Xenoman
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-03-07 18:18, dbacon wrote:
So, who do you dig? Don Cherry? Tim Hagans?
Who is the leader today? How about....ALEX SIPIAGIN!! Who's the best......RON STOUT!! Let me know who the young cats today look to for leadership. I had Freddie, Dizzy, Miles, Clifford, Lee, Woody.....how about today...


Dave Bacon


I know there are a few Wynton haters out there but I'm definitely not one of them - I think he's a fantastic musician and my opinion doesn't have a thing to do with marketing. I look to him for leadership - mainly from the point of learning from the past and paying attention to the masters who paved the way. That allows me to look towards modern day musicians as well as Miles, Dizzy, Clifford, Woody and Lee for inspiration and direction.

By the way Dave - I LOVE the Woody Shaw collection we spoke of earlier. Amazing stuff. I'm still digesting the first and second CDs. You provided me some direction by bringing this great man to my attention. THANKS!




[ This Message was edited by: Xenoman on 2002-03-07 19:18 ]
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB

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Quadruple C
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 14:27 ]
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Quadruple C
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 14:27 ]
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Redhothorn
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2002 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some "jazz" cats I dig ...

Tim Hagans ... turned on ti his playing in early seventies when he was with Stan Kenton

Carl Saunders ... plays out west ... this guy can absolutely wail! Alot like Bobby Shew in that he is equally at home in the jazz chair or lead chair. Catch him with The Bob Florence Big Band . Recording "Out of the Blue" is excellent!

Bobby Shew ... vastly underappreciated ... I can still remember "Road Time" with Toshiko Akiyoshi Big Band ... that is one hell of ah swinging album!

Off that same album is Steven Huffstetter!

Ron Stout ... paid his dues with Buddy Rich ...

Jon Fedchocks "Hit The Bricks" ... great jazz trombone with great jazz trumpet player ... can't recall the name.

Vaughn Nark ... another absolutely phenom who can play jazz or stratospheric lead. (Summit Records)

Lew Soloff ... although I have been disappointed in his solo albums that I've heard

Brian Lynch
Greg Gisbert
Guido Basso
Joe Magnarelli








[ This Message was edited by: redhothorn on 2002-03-09 23:42 ]
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB

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Quadruple C
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2002 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2003-09-29 14:28 ]
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pfrank
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, who do you dig? Don Cherry? Tim Hagans?
Who is the leader today? How about....ALEX SIPIAGIN!! Who's the best......RON STOUT!! Let me know who the young cats today look to for leadership. I had Freddie, Dizzy, Miles, Clifford, Lee, Woody.....how about today...


Dave Bacon [/quote]

I was responding the the topic: New Talent - Too Critical? My short version answer is "yes". We ALL have Freddie, Miles, Woodie et al. Yes, I like Don Cherry and Tim Hagans. I also like Jon Hassell and Dave Douglas. And many others. Armando Ghitalla was my 1st influence. I'm not a young cat. I'm older than I seem. I remember what it was like before the Web, before digital recording, cell phones and faxes. In other words, the acoustic age. I remember what it was like to walk down a street in the summer in Boston's Back Bay with Kind Of Blue wafting out of one window and and Archie Shepp out of another. It was a more "relaxed" age (acoustic) and the jazz expressions were deeper and more profound, or so it seems. This age, the digital age, will have to be judged later on, on it's own terms, and not totally in comparison to the earlier age. THAT is why I'm not going to make a simplistic reply as you suggest. That's one of the problems with this age: packaged answers, instant results. Forget that, man! It's anti-life! (kidding...)
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dbacon
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2002 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB

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pfrank
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[
Glad you did not send a simplistic reply. I'm a bit older, and remember vividly hearing Diz live, Miles, Woody Shaw. Basie, Ellinton etc. Here is still a pro life question. Who are the giants today that match up to them?And I also know some of the problems with this age. You got some solutions? How about listening to each other? At the time of Ellington, there was no question of his greatness. No need to wait for another age to judge his impact on music. Miles the same. Who today has that stature? I don't want a packaged answer. I'd like your honest opinion!

Dave Bacon
[/quote]
OK.
That Is a good question, worthy of pondering.
Here are some thoughts:
I believe there is music going on today that is as great as what the past offered, but the truth is that we might not hear about it or recognize (or like) it if we did. It's a complex question.

Heiroglyphics from ancient Egypt complain about the (then) modern age, how the youth had no respect...

When I was a kid in the 50s and 60s, Ellington Was Not respected by the adults I knew. Perry Como was. Doc Severinson. Pete Fountain. Elington was a non-factor, a hidden danger, (a smart black man) but his harmonies and sounds started to get into movie and TV soundtracks. Eventually, the world caught up.

I remember when "adults" didn't "get" the rock thing: the emphisis moved from sophisticated melody to rythm texture, and so you have jazz critics who hated Miles's On The Corner, and still do. When I first brought that record home from the town library, it was the most fascinating and exciting/dangerous music I had ever heard! Bill Lazwell has stated that On The Corner was the Most influencial album of it's era. (Do you know who Bill Lazwell is? He did the Pangea mix and has many CDs out on his own, mainly in the ambient/jungle idiom, but his production/mixing of Pharoh Saunders, Ronald Shannan Jackson and Ginger Baker CDs are excellent too)

A few years before he passed, Frank Zappa said that his band would never have been signed if they were commin up today. (I'm not a fan, he's too conceptual for me, but he was a smart guy) Would the Beatles rise to the "top of the tippery top" today? They don't dance, show skin and they thumbed their noses at (pop) authority. The only wrote good songs. Even 'Revolution' (literal and figurative) is packaged and marketed to the kids now-a-days.

We can't go back in time, nor would we want to, but one of the reasons the jazz giants were deep was that they had to overcome great obsticles, such as racism and lack of resources. Many people responded to the crisis of 911 in a way that was very truly uplifting and real.

Jazz has become an idiom taught in schools, not learned on the corner. It has become institutionalized, like classical music did. When I hear certain soloists today, I can hear where the memorized licks happen. This is always happening: something tremendous and pure is put into mass-digestable form. Kinda like religion...but lets not go there...
When I hear Miles or Bird, I hear Melody whether it be hot or cool. I don't hear chord analysis. The school players of today, in "jazz" and classical are very very good. Technically. Fortunatly, we Do have the old recordings of the greats, and one of the reasons they stick out is that they offer a real alternative to the modern vibe. They are sincere.

I know a 20yo kid and he's been lending me some CDs of new stuff in the hip-hop electronica/d&b vein, and some of it is good.
One was this European group called "Birth". My young friend called it " drum & bass freestyle" and I had to tell him, this is Jazz! (These guys quote 'Salt Peanuts' even) I gave him Power Tools with Bill Frizell, and He loved it. Today I'm listening to something called Aluminium Group. It's cool. Very jazzy! Then there is Spring Heal Jack. (He was reviewed in Jazz Times, so someoone is listening) It's Happening in the Underground these days, it seems. But then, back in the day, guys would trade and swap "sides" they thought you should hear, and it wasn't Perry Como!

In all of the above, I am commenting on the modern American experience. There is allot going on outside of the US too. Possibly on other planets too, but we don't know about that.
Creativity never ends. It just changes shape.
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pfrank
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2002 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

woops
a correction: Lazwell did the "Panthalasa" re-mix of Miles, Pangea is another Davis release. And of course, please excuse spelling errors.
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Xenoman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will be the first to admit that there are no great leaders in trumpet like Armstrong, Dizzy, Miles, Shaw or in jazz for that matter like Ellington. These guys were monster talents with God given abilities. Just as we said before - their old recordings yeild a wealth of information that can be digested for a lifetime x 2. Still, I cannot and will not write off some of the new cats coming up. I hear something in their music and while it may not be as "legendary" as some of the works of the players mentioned above - it definitely has it's place in jazz.

Like I said before - music is very personal. Who truly has the right to say what is important and worth listening to? Some people loved Ornette Coleman's free jazz - others thought it was crap. Who was right?

Also - was it really Wynton's fault what happened to Woody Shaw or was it Columbia Records??? I don't know much about the history behind that but I have a feeling that this situation is much like any in music - it's driven by $$$ and not talent. I definitely hate that (the state of music today is sad because of it) but if that is what happened, it's hardly Wynton's fault.
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Ronnie
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2002 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey KC,

Yup, I agree, there are no "real" leaders, but what there is as a lot of real talent out there. Many of the leaders were leaders, because they were at the head of a pupolar cultural revolution. And in these times the cultural revolution (hovever sad) is taking place in pop music. They are the ones with the finances behind them - Britney Spears, rap music (which, by the way I really dig, THE ROOTS baby!)

If the LCJO was given the budget and the airplay of the BackStreet Boys, man, Jazz would be off th hook. To be totally honest with you, I'll take substance over pretense any day, but I do agree that there has to be some trade off. Pop musicians of today just aren't cutting it on a professional level.

Rest assured though, there are tons of monster horn players out there. Is the industry too critical? No. I think that the industry isn't critical enough or have enough understanding of "music" to shed light on all the truly gifted musicians out there.

Ronnie

Quote:

On 2002-03-13 17:32, Xenoman wrote:
I will be the first to admit that there are no great leaders in trumpet like Armstrong, Dizzy, Miles, Shaw or in jazz for that matter like Ellington. These guys were monster talents with God given abilities. Just as we said before - their old recordings yeild a wealth of information that can be digested for a lifetime x 2. Still, I cannot and will not write off some of the new cats coming up. I hear something in their music and while it may not be as "legendary" as some of the works of the players mentioned above - it definitely has it's place in jazz.

Like I said before - music is very personal. Who truly has the right to say what is important and worth listening to? Some people loved Ornette Coleman's free jazz - others thought it was crap. Who was right?

Also - was it really Wynton's fault what happened to Woody Shaw or was it Columbia Records??? I don't know much about the history behind that but I have a feeling that this situation is much like any in music - it's driven by $$$ and not talent. I definitely hate that (the state of music today is sad because of it) but if that is what happened, it's hardly Wynton's fault.

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dbacon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2002 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DB

Last edited by dbacon on Mon Jun 20, 2022 7:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Xenoman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2002 8:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest, I cannot make that call as I have not listened to any of Tom Harrell's stuff. What is his medical condition and can you suggest any recent records that I can check out?

Quote:

On 2002-03-23 00:24, dbacon wrote:
Is Tom Harrell a leader today, or has his medical condition kept him from being well listened to. Any prejudice there? His record company, have they promoted him ala Wynton?


Dave Bacon
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Ronnie
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2002 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KC,

For the most part, Tom Harrell's stuff is great. He is a very melodic soulful player with a great technical ability. You know that's a lot coming from me.

I think that he is a scizophrenic KC.

Ronnie

http://home.earthlink.net/~tomharrell/articles_esquire.html

[ This Message was edited by: Ronnie on 2002-03-26 11:55 ]
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Xenoman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2002 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

On 2002-03-26 11:54, Ronnie wrote:
KC,

For the most part, Tom Harrell's stuff is great. He is a very melodic soulful player with a great technical ability. You know that's a lot coming from me.

Ronnie

http://home.earthlink.net/~tomharrell/articles_esquire.html


You're absolutely right... coming from YOU!

I will go to the CD store during lunch and pickup his latest/greatest. Thanks.
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