Kanstul 1500

[shofarguy]

Kirk,

It is simple. Kanstul models play like Kanstul models, not the horns they are patterned after, so they are not really clones.

Kanstul stays with proven designs, because the market has chosen these long ago. Most of the acoustic work has been done. The advances in instrument design over the last 30 years do find their way into every Kanstul and Kanstul-made instrument. To say that there have been none displays either a lack of exposure to the product or an inability to judge between vintage and modern.

Expectations of the marketplace dissuade builders from varying from established conventions. When one does bring something new to market, the product is met with baseless criticism and suspicion. Arguments like, "if such and such is so good, everyone would play one," display the closed mindset of the mainstream market. So most builders don't bother.

The most recent case in point is the new 1410 Conservatory model. With very few having actually played it, opinions are being formed about the sound and playability of the horn(s). I'm sure there are a number reading this very post that have already decided that they would not like this model because it doesn't sound like a Bach 229 or 239, isn't a "professional" model, or just because they are tired of me writing about Kanstul horns and never giving a negative report (which isn't exactly true, if you have kept up with what I've written about the 1070 over the years).

And Kirk, no one has money to invest in projects that have no discernible future in the marketplace. Production trumpets made in the US have only a few years of profitability left. You yourself often cite Carol as a quality alternative to domestic trumpets and tout the "greed and selfishness" of US company management for charging too high a price. At the same time, union employees are complaining that their salaries and benefits are being cut, etc. There is no way for the volume producer to justify re-inventing the trumpet wheel.

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[Capt.Kirk]

Well maybe "none" is a bit harsh and over stated kind of like the word "never" so I will take that part back and insert not a lot of advances. Having dug through all kinds of old patents by B&H and other's I can say that their is all kinds of great idea's not being exploited currently by the large OEM with regard to both design and manufacturing.

Of course all Kanstul's are going to play in the end the way Mr. Kanstul wants he is the one making the call on the little details. SO saying a Kanstul plays like a Kanstul is kind of a given is it not???? The devil is in the details but if we take you logic and extend it that one would have to say that all products built by Kanstul for other people play like Kanstul's and I think that is very unfair as the design does play a role. Kanstul Clone ie bell profile, leadpipe profile tuning slide geometry bell bow radius and main slide radius copy of a Constellation plays like a Kanstul copy of a Constellation. If you copy 80%-95% OF A HORNS PROFILES AND GEOMETRY it is by default a Copy and what is a Clone but a copy. If you have all the tolling from Benge and build horns with that tooling it really does not matter if you call it a Toyota it is a Benge with a different name and valve assembly it is what it is. So which horn in the Kanstul line up has an entirely original bell profile, leadpipe and geometry that is not copied from some other vintage model of horn copy,clone and reverse engineered are all interchangeable in the English lexicon unlike you Brian I do not live in the land of PC where one has to appease the PC police lest one be labeled intolerant.

So when was the last time Kanstul designed an entirely new Leadpipe from Scratch or an entirely new Valve assembly from scratch or an entirely new bell profile from scratch????

I was more then fair in saying that making clones of great vintage horns does not detract from their fantastic build quality or their engineering skill, or their customer service or anything else. I understand how hard it can be to work backwards from another person's design and get it right so that it is close functional copy. Sure not with trumpet's but with making parts for machinery and from watching engineers at GM try to work backwards to figure something out.

As to the customer making the choice of what Kanstul copies when was that Marketing Study done 5,10,15,20 years ago? Who was the market surveyed when has their been another market study? How does one get to be on that panel? Movies get screened all the time for which ending is liked best, car's get marketing surveys from customer base ie people that drive car's on a regular basis before they a are brought to market, foods from Breakfast cerals to TV dinners have trail market runs in select area's before going National but when and where does Kanstul do their research? I do not recall any polls asking what people would like to see them build? No polls asking for what they would like as to options or anything like that? I get the distinct feeling it is a small circle of insider's that make all the choices and have Zig's ear because I do not think it is the thousands of people buying his products that are getting any input.

Anyone on this site specifically ask for the X horn to be built and cataloged???? The way I heard it I think from you Brian is that some friend in Europe asked him to build something with the West Coast sound and he did. Not a lot of marketing surveying going on with a sample size of 1.

Mr. Kanstul owns his compay and works for himself if he wants to makes party harts a regular item that comes with each trumpet it is not up to me to tell him how to run his company. I am though as a Free, Male above the age of 18 allowed to have an opinion on things. If you are going to defend everything he does might want to have some hard facts to back up claims like " market has spoken"!!! The market changes all the time. I think this is especially the case when you tell us people are not buying trumpet's that sounds like the market is speaking volumes right their! Why are not buying?? Maybe because they are tired of the same old stuff. The model T was a huge hit for Mr. Ford but once he had saturated every corner of the globe with them if he wanted to keep selling car's he had to eventually design something else that was different in order to keep making sales.

Mr. Kanstul has one of the finest selections of totally different and varied products of any OEM Brass Instrument manufacture I can think. That does not mean their is not room for improvement or for new non-cloned non-copied designs or for new clones and new copies of other more modern designs!

Look at Brass Spa, Stomvi, Harrelson, Taylor,Monette,Schagrel last I checked Kanstul did not have any clone's, copies, reverse engineered or inspired designs by any of these guys? Since all of these guys seem to be eating just fine and selling products for some time now I would say the market has spoken to them as well. Making a Clone of some one elses product is not an insult but it is not inovative either. I think every single company that mass produces horns has some version of a Bach 180S37, Schilke P5-4 or Stomvi 5710 Master Elite Pic right?????

Let's look at all the horns people would prob. like to see affordable clones of: Martin Large Bore Com, Blessing Super Artist, Monette Prana III, Monette Tantric 4 valve Extended range Bb, Holton Thunder Bird, Olds Tri Color Super Recording with off set valve assembly, Selmer K Modified, Selmer Ballanced Model, Some of the Keifer Models, Some of the Boston Vega model's, Boston 3 Star Cornet, Maybe something like a Harrelson Bravura especially the bracing design around the valve assembly. So their are plenty of other horns besides the current crop in his catalog that I am sure would sell just fine and would inject new fresh blood into the market. No matter how good your Model T is sooner or latter you need to add some new models and retire some of the ones that have been sitting in the catalog for too long.

The market speaks all the time and it says all kinds of things just depends on what your demographics are for the target market.

So Brian where are all this innovations in design?Where are the research paper's in the TG Journal? Where is the intonation strobe test's or the laser tomography etc...... All the great research paper's I have seen have been done by B&H and owner of Smith Watkins. How long has it been since Byron did any work for Kanstul?

So if anyone nose is bent it is their own fault. I never took anything away from anyone with regards to the quality of their product or anything like that!

Oh and at no time was it my intention to offend anyone just stating my disappointment with what is one the market from all the large OEM's.
_________________
The only easy day was yesterday!

[Uberopa]

Geez Captain. Don't you have any Care Concept Maps to write?

ex registered nurse, Brian

[shofarguy]

[shofarguy]

Actually, Kirk, Zig's horns all bear his unique stamp. There are familial similarities in how my Wild Thing plays and, say, how a 700 plays. Design choices developed over the years give each design a certain style that elicits a common approach from the player. It's the same with other makers, like Calicchio and Bach.

Even his Chicago designs reflect the same ethos. They are not Benges, close though they be. Not one part (well, maybe braces and the little turnings) is the same or even interchangeable.

Accuracy, kindness and respect are not the same thing as being Politically Correct. Negativity, generalization and presumption are not signs of independent thought.

One more thing to answer your question, I have one such unique trumpet design in my bedroom, right now. The Kanstul 1410 design has never been seen before. It uses a unique bell designed by well known acousticians of a bygone era, but never brought to market in any form. It succeeds, where others have failed, in providing both a usable Bb and C trumpet in one product; both configurations possessing nearly equal playability; intonation and response rivaling or even exceeding some professional-level instruments.

Watch for the full review.

Brian
_________________
Brian A. Douglas

Flip Oakes Wild Thing Bb Trumpet in copper
Flip Oakes Wild Thing Flugelhorn in copper


There is one reason that I practice: to be ready at the downbeat when the final trumpet sounds.

[GenoValet]

[ChopsGone]

[oliver king]

[ohiotpt]