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dialing in a martin committee cornet



 
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 2:25 pm    Post subject: dialing in a martin committee cornet Reply with quote

WOW

for at least 15 years I have in the back of my mind wanted to get a Committee cornet dialed in and playing well. I like certain aspects to the committee cornet but I have had a few, and they all the same exact problem: Way sharp in the upper register especially high B natural.

Now, the horns play great, and sound great. They are actually way nicer in the middle register than the trumpet, which is of course saying a LOT. The cornet has the same bell as the trumpet, and the leadpipes are supposedly made on the same mandrell. The valve bodies are in fact the same. So the dif is the wrap, and the closer wrap of the cornet feels and sounds great to your ears when you play it. But the high reg is terrible.

Sounds like a mouthpiece shank issue right? Well I am pretty good at messing with that because I can make different shanks and backbores etc.

Every so often I get the bug to work on it again, and..... no go....I just have not been able to get it. I have tried at least 20 combination...long, short, deep, shallow, big, small, etc.

Basically what i want from the committee cornet, is a committee trumpet, but better. It should be possible...


So this summer i have taken a different approach. I decided to dial in the reciever, or at least examine it it see the design. It's weird and frankly, pretty bad. Most cornets have the receiver blending smoothly into the end of the leadpipe. Or maybe there is a "gap" situation like a trumpet.

The committee is niether of those! the end of the leadpipe is .350 (same venturi size as the committee trumpet! so it's the exact same pipe!) but then there is a cornet receiver slapped on it and the insertion taper gets all the way down to .330, and then it butts up against the end of the pipe that is .350. So your mouthpiece exit diameter is about .280, and the receiver wall ID is about .340 right there. Then the the receiver bore is still shrinking for about another 3/8 inch down to .330, and then it hits the leadpipe and jumps out to .350.

What a mess! no wonder it sucks

SO .... here is what i did.

I ran the numbers and it come out that if you have the receuver bore start to expand right where the end of the mouthpiece is, and expand at about a morse taper, by the time it hits the leadpipe, it blends right into the venturi. In other words, a "normal" cornet style "no gap" situation.

Guess what?

yup..... plays GREAT. I am stoked big time. This horn is awesome now. The valve were rebuilt when i got it, cuz i loved the sound. I just could never deal with the intonation. Now it's really in there.

I am using my Jazz 1 cup, which is based on a miles davis style gustat/hiem type cup, and using a "long shank" and all of that is just superb. All the way up and down, great response, big upper register and melts right up to high G like miles on seven steps to heaven.

The stability and smoothness in the middles register is even better too, and that was good before the mod.

Stoked:)
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stumac
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Doug,

pleased to hear of your successful fix for the cornet, this pretty well answers the question I put to you several months ago re gap and step at leadpipe. I have a couple of horns coming to experiment with.

Regards, Stuart.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cool! I always wondered what would happen if you fixed the gap issue on a Martin never even gave any thought to the Cornet! So very interesting!
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Mark Curry
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doug, glad you figured this one out!

Just recently, a customer of mine (abundrefo here on TH) had had problems getting a mouthpiece to work in his Martin handcraft Dansant (circa 1940's).

It seems the Martin 7 mpc that came with the horn worked just fine (although the wrong cup and rim for him). Anyway, he took great measurements of the gap with the Martin 7 and a couple of Bach and Schilke mpc's and found that the Martin trumpet shank was about 10-13 thou undersized compared to the "modern" mouthpieces. The small end of the taper measured right at .372"

However, it provided a very workable gap of about .150" and the Handcraft just lit up!

The modern mouthpieces provided a gap of anywhere from .285" to .330", a HUGE gap that seemed unworkable.

I made him a 3M. in an undersized (about 9 thousandths) small than today's normal mouthpiece. He was overjoyed- the horn just sang with this undersized shank.

Is this endemic among the old Martin receivers?
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mike ansberry
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am hesitant to post my opinions here after Mark Curry. Obviously I know nothing about the mechanics of mouthpieces compared to him. But...

I think a lot of the old horns have a problem with the shank size. I have a 1939 Conn 40B. It worked great with the Conn 4 that came with it, but not with my Bach 7C. I cut the shank down on the Bach mouthpiece until it gave me a workable gap, and WOW, what a horn. I was recently testing an early pre-Committee Imperial Handcraft. Same deal. With a modern mouthpiece it was a very so-so horn. But I cut another 7C down to give a workable gap and again, WOW, what a horn. I decided against keeping it because it needed a valve job, so if you have an early Martin and want a Bach 7C that will fit it, let me know. I have no use for it so it is yours for cost of shipping.

I'm wondering what would happen if you put a trumpet receiver on the Committee cornet? Would it be too long in the shank and cause intonation problems? This is an interesting subject for me. A Committee cornet is WAY cheaper than a Committee trumpet.
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oldblow
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not certain the shank/gap issue is limited to older horns. I got a Kanstul 610 trumpet yesterday ($150. while you all were sleeping). I unwrapped it, shot a Marcinkiewicz E3/3C in it and blew. It sounded like a $4 bugle. A little dismayed, I tried a Marcinkiewicz 0-S. The tone was dark, but it still played terribly and was hard to find the notes. I cleaned the horn thoroughly, and tried the same mouthpieces..with similar results. Exasperated, I plugged the Kanstul 7C into the receiver, and got a different horn. A check of the gap revealed almost 1/8th indifference between the Marcinkiewiczs and the Kanstul.

Tonight, I put a Curry 3BC in, and got a good result. Now, I need to find some valve springs that don't make my hands tremble like I am using the valves for weight training. I love my Kanstul cornet, but this trumpet is trying to live outside its reputation.

The the OP, the process you went through and your description of the technical side of things is very interesting and informative!
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to be clear, the cornet is a lot different than the trumpet receiver situation.

It is now set up just about like a conn cornet, or just about any other cornet. No "gap" per se. It was just basically messed up the wa martin made it. I dont think they designed it that way.

I have always thought that with these type receivers, the exit wall of the mouthpiece should be as thin as possible so that the backbore transitions smoothly right right into the leadpipe. That is not how cornets usually work though. Most of the time the exit wall is thick, so there is a big sudden expansion at the end of the backbore when it goes from like .290 to 330.

Every time i tried to make a mouthpiece with a thin wall like that it is pretty much terrible. The backbore ends up just way too big. Using a flugel backbore reamer gets you a nice thin wall but I never liked it as well as using a thick exit wall. Now when i was in college in 1980, I played a yamaha 631 cornet and my mouthpiece used my flugal backbore with a nice thin wall, and I liked it a lot, and I played that horn for everything for about a year. That is why I always think it should work for other cornets. It never seems to any more though.

Anyway, for some reason the thick ext wall seems to work with cornet "no gap" receivers. Interesting.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have played around with thinning down shanks for friends with older horns that had receiver issues and have found it very workable on a one to one basis. I have also had excellent results shortening a standard MP shank and then opening up the back bore which always gives a thin exit wall at the end of the shank. I have never been in a situation where I have made a MP from scratch and a matching receiver so that I could have all of that and a thick wall to boot! It would be interesting. to see what one got but then you would have a trumpet that would never accept standard MP's as long as it wore that receiver. That along with a zero gap would prove interesting to say the least.

I am not crazy about thin walls on MP because then you have the same issue you have with a MP cut for Reve's Sleeves....They are paper thin and if you just breath too hard on the shank they want to dent,bend or wrinkle!
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veery715
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one of the best threads ever on TH!
Thanks for your efforts, analysis, and explanation, Doug. And thanks to you all for keeping the focus.
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Wondra
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark Curry wrote:

Is this endemic among the old Martin receivers?


I have a 1925 Handcraft Dansant with the same receiver fit issue (with modern mouthpieces). I finally located a couple Dansant mouthpieces that I will be able to try. Mark - hang onto your measurements - I may be calling you soon!
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Dennis78
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know, I know.....
Old thread but there’s a link to it from another so......
What if a trumpet receiver were to be put on these cornets?
Not looking for a response as I don’t own a Committee cornet but thought I would just throw it out there for anyone else that ends up here
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Robert Rowe
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have several Committee Cornets ... including an Uber-Rare C-Cornet.

I like the stock Martin Cornet mouthpieces that came with the horns. In addition, the older Conn ""Wonder" mouthpieces seem to work well.

As-far-as installing a Committee Trumpet receiver on a Martin Cornet ... good luck with that ! I have a spare Committee Trumpet receiver. They are very had to come by. Very rare.


~ r2 ~
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chapahi
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark Curry wrote:


It seems the Martin 7 mpc that came with the horn worked just fine (although the wrong cup and rim for him). Anyway, he took great measurements of the gap with the Martin 7 and a couple of Bach and Schilke mpc's and found that the Martin trumpet shank was about 10-13 thou undersized compared to the "modern" mouthpieces. The small end of the taper measured right at .372"

However, it provided a very workable gap of about .150" and the Handcraft just lit up!



Is this endemic among the old Martin receivers?


I had something very similar going on with my 1938 Handcraft. The Martin 9 that came with it had a weird extra deep cup and a huge throat but it lit up the horn while with other mouthpieces there was stuffiness and intonation problems.
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Robert Rowe
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's not "overthink" this. Just because we live in the age of technology and information, and many of us believe ourselves to be clever ... ergo; we can use our intellect and our financial resources to conquer perceived problems.

Like the proverbial "re-inventing the wheel".

The answer to this post query is to use Martin mouthpieces. Why unnecessarily spend time and money with alternatives, such as custom-made mouthpieces?

And, you'll try to convince yourselves you cannot play anything but a 'piece custom-made.

I pity the fool ! -- Mr. T ... from the defunct TV show, "The A-Team"


~ r2 ~
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robert Rowe wrote:
Let's not "overthink" this. Just because we live in the age of technology and information, and many of us believe ourselves to be clever ... ergo; we can use our intellect and our financial resources to conquer perceived problems.

Like the proverbial "re-inventing the wheel".

The answer to this post query is to use Martin mouthpieces. Why unnecessarily spend time and money with alternatives, such as custom-made mouthpieces?

And, you'll try to convince yourselves you cannot play anything but a 'piece custom-made.

I pity the fool ! -- Mr. T ... from the defunct TV show, "The A-Team"


~ r2 ~
(former community-organizer)


Robert,

I don't know if you know it, but Mark Curry is one of America's most respected mouthpiece makers and supplies his designs to a number of manufacturers. So, instead of accepting a small line of generic designs, this is now a normal part of dialing in an instrument these days. Technology and communication is making these things de rigueur.
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Robert Rowe
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brian ~~

You ARE making a point.

However; I disagree with your premise. Just because "nice guys", techie-geeks, reputable people in the mouthpiece business (or, ANY business, for-that-matter) ... claim a 1%-or-5% "improvement" in results, doesn't mean everyone should rush to acquire the "latest / greatest" ... and, at a COST ($$) that may not be insignificant.

Ever study marketing?
Ever read "The Emperor's New Clothes"? (by Hans Christian Andersen)

I also "live" in the guitar world (am a multi-instrumentalist). Am on forums such as this horn forum. Clapton got one of my vintage amps.

There are thousands of guys that obsess over tone. Still trying to emulate Scotty Moore's (Elvis' original guitarist) sound from "Mystery Train" (1955, I think?), and/or Hank Marvin's (of the English group, The Shadows) sound on "Apache" and "Ghost Riders In The Sky" ... 1960's popular tunes.
Google "Dumble" amplifiers ... and, you'll see what I mean.

MY POINT >>> One need not spend scads of $$$ to realize very, very good tone and sound. Whether playing a horn, a guitar, a violin / fiddle, drums ... whatever.

Have a nice day ....


~ r2 ~
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bnsd
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know nuthin about nuthin...

but I know curry mouthpieces and lipshurt mouthpieces are GREAT pieces and they KNOW what works
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