Sound Experiment

[Derek Reaban]

"The louder you play, the less it carries! In my opinion, the quality that carries is the amplification of the dolce tone."

Marcel Tabuteau - The Philadephia Orchestra


Based on the recent topic about Visualizing Resonance I have been very intrigued about the possibility of mapping the sound benefits of playing with a "more complex", colorful, vibrant sound. The ability of a vibrant sound to carry easily to the back of the hall is something that not everyone has experienced (this is targeted more at high school / college students and probably many comeback players). And if they have experienced it in a concert situation, they probably haven't had the chance to sit beside the player to understand what this "powerful" sound from the hall sounds like from behind the bell.

I made a sketch of a proposed experiment to give those players who are skeptical of a sound that "projects", something more tangible to "measure" on their own for comparison purposes. I’m writing this, not only because I’m curious about this myself, but also because of a player on the TPIN list that literally hasn’t experienced a truly resonant sound, and is skeptical that different types of sound project better than others.

I know that occasionally I’ve been to a carnival or some type of outdoor event where a pitching booth is set up with a radar gun up and running. It’s always fun to spend a buck and see what how fast my fastball is compared to the pros. They’re throwing 95 MPH and I’m lucky to hit 70 MPH!

In that same spirit of adventure, I think something like that would be really fun to have at future ITG events. Here is a sketch of my experiment (maybe this has already been done somewhere and I can simply find a copy):




I think I’ve got the general impressions right in my drawing: a more colorful sound (i.e. one with more harmonic activity in the higher overtones) will carry more easily than a “loud” sound that has less harmonic content.

In the ITG “pitching booth”, a player would start with a second line G, followed by a lip slur exercise, and then a top of the staff G to calibrate their sound. All of this would be measured by the decibel meters and the frequency analyzer. Then, based on the player, a standard orchestral excerpt would be played, or the first phrase of a standard solo, or the head of a screaming big band chart. This data would all be collected and analyzed, and a number would be spit out:

95 MPH – Orchestral Pro / Top Call Lead Player
75 MPH – Promising High School / College / Community Player
50 MPH – Average HS / College / Community Player

Or some number like this (a compilation of the number of harmonic spikes, the magnitude of the spikes, and the dB reading at each of the specified distances).

In a post I made on TM called The Princess and the Princes, Ed Carroll said, “Allow me to wear my Arnold Jacobs hat for a moment . . . it would be fun, wouldn't it, to illustrate your point with two pieces of equipment: a LED meter (to measure volume) and an oscilloscope (to measure resonance). The game at hand would be to decrease the former while increasing the latter. I'd prefer, however, to train my ears rather than my eyes, making those of you who own stock in Johnson & Johnson very happy.”

Well, this is simply a picture of that idea!

I don’t know how difficult something like this would be to set up between now and the ITG conference, but I think it would be a really interesting attraction that everyone would want to try. This could then be written up in the ITG Journal, of maybe even for someone’s thesis (I have no idea if this is thesis material, but if it is and someone could get credit for it, GREAT!). Then, with all of the parameters in place, this experiment could be duplicated at any university in the future and players at these facilities would say, “Phil Smith and Michael Sachs got a score of 102 at the ITG conference and I’m looking at a 67. Whoa! What do I need to do to find more resonance in my sound?”

Just some thoughts on a Sunday evening.
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Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

[Jim-Wilson]

Derek,

I think the idea is great if the setup can be evaluated before ITG. I'm sure you or whoever sets it up will have plenty of guinea pigs on the slow pitch side - I'm not close by but am sure I'd provide some fine slow pitches - Ha! Actually, I intend to make ever better progress with my sound and hopefully will reach at least the minor leagues sometime in the next few years.

You should be able to test your concept with players in your area. You mentioned your mentor on the "fast pitch" side as well as yourself. Surely there'd be many grade school and high school kids who would like to be guinea pigs. I'd be certain the concept has validity at the earliest opportunity. Part of the challenge would be "quantifying" the spectral pattern as it relates to the qualitative judgment of how good a player's sound is. If there are differences, they should be most obvious between a grade school player and yourself. I'd start there with your discman/mike. You'll certainly want to do it in the same room pointing the same direction, etc. I'd be very interested to see how it works out.

From the stanpoint of "quantifying" the quality of the spectral pattern, I notice that Audacity is written in code that allows "plug-ins". This is where it might get real challenging, but it would be great if you could identify and quantify the spectral characteristics in such a fashion that someone could write a "plug-in" for Audacity that would generate the individual participant's "pitching speed".

Anyhow, I'm very interested in seeing what you come up with.

Jim

[blasticore]

On a note supporting the "louder...less it carries" thing, I was playing 3rd book today in jazz band. The guy on 4th and I were told we were barely coming through, and I'd like to think I was playing at a considerably loud volume. I just followed the observation, leveled my stand to where I could set a cup of coffee on it, pointed my bell directly at the director, and blew like there was no tomorrow. He...didn't say anything about it, good or bad. Apparently, that was the right volume, even though the guys in lead and 2nd weren't doing anything quite as ridiculous-looking as what I was. The moral of the story: Chris doesn't carry. Get him a microphone.
_________________
Chris King
http://www.cktrumpet.com
http://www.ckbrassworks.com

[bilboinsa]

Chris:

Your case more likely has to do with pitch vs. volume. 3rd and 4th can often get overrun by the 1st and or 2nd parts. I think........
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[Derek Reaban]

This was something that I wrote in response to a similar conversation that we've been having on the TPIN list related to "projection".

When I had a lesson with Charlie Schlueter (Principal BSO), I was in my living room and had a recorder set up on the other side of the room. When I would play a phrase, the needle would maybe register about to the halfway point. Every time that Charlie would play the same phrase, the needle would be pegged!

Years later when I was getting ready for a Phoenix Symphony audition, I was recording my lesson. When I played the opening to Mahler 5 my sound did not project across the room nearly as well as my instructor’s sound did (now recording on a Mini Disk player). His sound would peg the led indicators and as I got into the higher register my sound would simply not register as well (maybe a half to a third of what my instructor was getting).

So, when I think of projection, I simply think of a sound that carries well and can be recorded.

I've been thinking about what I have available to me for this experiment, and since I don't have any sound level meters (I'm not even sure where I would go to borrow one - or many), I've come up with another idea.

I have a Mini Disc recorder and so does my instructor. If I would set up one recorder across the room, and the other one in line with our ears, I could very easily count the number of bars that are registered on the LED indicator for each individual note. This would give a rough estimate of what the microphone's pick up (behind the bell and at a distance).

My sound is very vibrant from the bottom of my register up to a G/A at the top of the staff. While I can play up to a concert D/Eb, my sound loses vibrancy above the A. This is where the experiment would really be able to highlight a difference.

After my lesson I would simply take both disks home, listen to the play back and count the LED bars from both recording and compare mine against my instructors. If this shows what I think it will, I could then do the same thing with a student player (I know someone at my church that has the sound I hear in many young players) and then I could compare his numbers against mine.

I guess we'll all find out if this phenomenon can be measured after my lesson. I think it will be very apparent (based on my past experience), but who knows? We'll let the Mini Disks do their non-partial evaluation of what they are hearing.

I'll report my findings next Monday.
_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

[PowerSpectrum]

Soundcannottravelwithoutloosing energy

[kalijah]

Sound will attenuate in proportion to the square of the distance from the source, in general.

The diagram you show would likely not occur.

.

[razeontherock]

I know that in electronic systems like a PA, it's accepted that + or - 3dB is considered double / half the volume, and that volume is cut in half every time you double the distance from the sound source. It'd be really interesting to discover that a trumpet functioned differently ...

Ray
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"And this is life: that you know the Son, and the One who sent Him." The rest is just details

[Jim-Wilson]

Power Spectrum and Kalijah,

I'm no physicist or acoustics engineer so this question does not presuppose I know the answer - I don't. But, the question I ask myself in relation to Derek's observations re: the projection of Charlie Schleuter's sound versus his own is, does the spectral pattern of the virtuoso player so favor higher dynamics in the upper spectral resonant frequencies that the sound does not attenuate as quickly as does the "flat" sound of those of us who do not have as broad a spectral pattern (particularly less in the upper harmonics). I don't think Derek is trying to violate any laws of physics, he is making a subjective observation and questioning - Why? As a layperson in this area I certainly wonder "does the "Why?" have to do with harmonic strength in the upper harmonics?" The suggestion is not that the total energy is not attenuated by the laws of physics but that the "total" energy in the virtuoso player favors the higher resonant frequencies. The question is, do these higher frequencies "project" further - i.e. are they not attenuated as quickly as is the energy of the lower frequency harmonics? Inquiring minds want to know. Science is experimentation - maybe this is well established by others but short of someone definitively offering evidence to the contrary - let the experiment begin!

[grooveduke]

A percussionist friend of mine once explained what makes a good triangle. It is one that generally doesn't sound that good by itself. It has lots of overtones and they are not necessarily in tune with each other. But in an orchestra, the frequencies that are in tune with the overtones of the orchestra itself are emphasized (constructive interference?) and the others get buried (destructive interference? masking?) and the triangle sounds in tune with the orchestra.

Is this the sort of thing you are talking about, or was my friend just trying to sell bad triangles?

I guess I think of volume as the loudness of a sound, and projection as finding the notch where you fit into the ensemble where you can be heard without playing louder (playing in tune!). Projection in a setting without an ensemble might be: trying to find the frequencies that the room you are in resonates at...?
Figuring out how to get the most bang for your buck in that sense?
Is this a question of perception?
I have certainly experienced what you are talking about (lesson tapes are very helpful in this.) And I would bet the others have also, ... even if they question your diagram.
I too have more questions than scientific explanations.
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[swthiel]

As usual, Derek has proposed some interesting ideas.

[grooveduke]

[blasticore]

[Jim-Wilson]

Derek,

A thought concerning your proposal to use two different "Discmen". What you're wanting is a record of the sound up close and at a distance with minimal time disruption or time synching hassles in the post recording analysis. Since the discman is a stereo recording device and the Audacity program is set up to display two different signals (L and R or "near and far"), why don't you use two microphones setup to record monaurally to the separate stereo channels on one discman? You can use a mini-jack splitter/combiner (should be available at Radio Shack or could be relatively easily constructed through some wire splicing). You will want to use the same model microphone for both tracks. This way you can split the Near and Far tracks in Audacity (I'm pretty sure - my Hardenberger sound file presents as distinct and different L and R tracks in Audacity) and do a direct time synched comparison of the frequency analyses for the near channel and the far channel. One part of the analysis would be to look for those notes that are not as resonant from the same player and see if those particular notes do not project as well. Just a thought.

Jim

[chopissimo]

[jpetrocelli]

If anyone ever happens to be in the VA Beach/Norfolk area and want to learn A LOT more about this stuff, look up a guy named Paul Lindsay. He is a genius when it comes to hearing you and telling you which overtones you need to bring out in your sound in order to project more. It's really amazing.
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Joe Petrocelli

[Don Herman rev2]

You might look up the Fletcher-Munson loudness curves, or Steinberg, Montgomery and Gardner's hearing contours, or Davis' equal-loudness contours, or similar. Bet that would go a long way toward explaining "carrying power".

For the uninitiated, the curves relate relative loudness to frequency, and are the basis for many tone controls and loudness switches on stereos, as well as acoustic design for rooms and such. At very high volumes, the curves are fairly flat, but as the volume drops the mid-band sensitivity becomes 10 to 1000 or more times greater than the frequency extremes (that is, we can hear a tone at 3 kHz, about an F four octaves over middle C on a piano, much better than a low bass or very high frequency pitch). Key point: human hearing has a fairly broad peak around 2- 3 kHz, which just happens to correspond to the primary pitch of a baby's cry. Imagine that.

FWIWFM - Don
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"After silence, that which best expresses the inexpressible, is music" - Aldous Huxley

[grooveduke]

So are you saying we are really talking about the bias of the human ear?
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[Derek Reaban]

Don,

Wow! I’m certainly going to do a little research to accompany this sound experiment. I think you’ve identified why a sound can be louder close to a player and softer in the hall (the player with a less vibrant, less complex sound), versus a softer sound close to the player and a louder sound in the hall (the player with a more vibrant, more complex sound).

For those players that are playing very loud with a "less complex" sound (i.e. they are generating more of the fundamental sound), the human ear is actually hearing less activity in that 2-3 kHz range, where the ear is most sensitive.

For the player that has lots of harmonic activity in that 2-3 kHz range (a colorful, vibrant sound), they can literally play the fundamental with less volume, and yet the higher harmonics will register more easily for the human ear to hear. This player "projects" more, simply because he or she is taking advantage of this physical attribute of human hearing.

The microphone "hears" this too, which is why a single player with this vibrant sound will stick out on a recording, when they are coupled with players that have less vibrant sounds.

Thanks very much for your post! This is starting to make more sense now!
_________________
Derek Reaban
Tempe, Arizona
Tempe Winds / Symphony of the Southwest

[PowerSpectrum]