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Mouthpiece for Pops/Wind Ensemble Playing


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Phoenix864
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:02 pm    Post subject: Mouthpiece for Pops/Wind Ensemble Playing Reply with quote

Hi all,

For about the past six years I have been playing on a stock Bach 3c. Over the past few months I have been running into a number of issues with my playing - namely a stuffy and highly resistant feel when playing. I will regularly end up with pressure headaches from playing, my right ear often becomes stuffed up as if I came off an airplane, and pushing above a high C makes me feel like I'm going to pass out. When playing in the lower register the horn just feels 'stuffy' and tight. I don't feel that I'm using extreme amounts of pressure, or that I'm severely constricting my throat - as I've been on the same piece for six years, I'm wondering if changing pieces could help alleviate some of the issues stuffiness I'm experiencing.

I've held off going to a physical store to try pieces for months due to COVID-19, but my endurance of these issues is faltering and my state's number of cases is in a bit of lull, so I'm hoping to make a quick trip out and try some alternatives. That said, I'm not 100% comfortable with going out, so if there are good options online I'm very open to just ordering something.

I primarily play wind ensemble/modern music right now, though as a college music student I'll eventually be covering the gamut of styles. For now, I'm not worried about achieving the standard 'orchestral sound' - an efficient piece that cuts through a group and does well in the upper register would be best.

Locally, I'm looking at a variety of Patrick pieces. Is there a good spot to start when looking at their pieces? I've also been wondering if some of my issues have been stemming from too much gap - does Patrick offer any smaller shank pieces or another way of trying a reduced gap?

As someone who has never shopped for a mouthpiece before, the number of options and combinations are rather overwhelming. I'm wondering if I might be best served by picking a highly adjustable system such as a Reeves or Warburton screw-together, which would allow easy (and less expensive) gap and part adjustment over time if I decide that I dislike a certain aspect of the piece.

I would appreciate any recommendations and advice.
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giakara
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A Reeves 43M/2 cut for sleeves with the basic #3,#4,#5 sleeves is a good start, the M cup is a crossover cup designed exactly for that you describe and the #2 bbore is very close to the Bach #10 you use but much more efficient.

Regards
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you have these issues before or are they 'new'? It sounds kinda odd that you've suddenly developed issues playing and to be honest, your description doesn't sound like they'll go away with a different mouthpiece. Do you have other horns/mpcs at home to try? Maybe your instrument needs a good cleaning/valve alignment/maintenance?

To answer your question though, if you're not that keen to go out, then maybe the 'Harrelson 5mm modular mouthpiece system' is something for you. It's rather expensive, but it'll give you the option to try a lot of stuff at home at your leisure (and probably have a lot more options than most retailers have). It is discussed in this thread.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it were me, I would begin with a mouthpiece that is the same as what I've been playing, but one which has a larger bore.
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nltrumpet
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
If it were me, I would begin with a mouthpiece that is the same as what I've been playing, but one which has a larger bore.


This. In my undergrad studies I was getting tons of resistance if I had to play above the staff, especially at forte or higher volumes. I went from a stock throat (#27) on my Bach 1 1/2C to a #25 and it made a world of difference.

It’ll take some adjustment, but it’s worth it in my opinion. Some will only use more open throats on C trumpets or smaller horns, but I prefer all of my mouthpieces to be at least a #26, with the exception of lead and piccolo pieces.
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JeffM729
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps you should also see a doctor as this could be a medical issue. The symptoms you report are unlikely to be caused by a mouthpiece you have been playing on for 6 years without these types of physical problems.
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Andy Del
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like above. Pop on your mask, wash your hands and take yourself, trumpet and some hand sanitiser off to the local GP and explain things.

This can be anything at all from an erupting wisdom tooth, TMJ, an impaction, infection, or simply poor playing habits.

Once you have got that out of the way and dealt with any issues that arise - you may well be sent off to see your dentist as well - THEN go get some lessons from a good teacher!

A mouthpiece change with no real reason why (playing less well than desired is not a reason) may just mask the issue leaving you in the lurch down the track. I have had kids tell me they can't do this or that because it hurts / is uncomfortable, etc. etc. My answer is that it should not hurt, etc. so something is wrong. Let's wrk to fix the wrong and hen you can play easily!

cheers

Andy
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GAP - you can get a good estimate of the gap by using a toothpick or straightened paperclip to determine the distance of the leadpipe edge from the end of the mouthpiece receiver. Then compare that distance to how deep the mouthpiece shank inserts into the receiver.

Jay
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

None this sound like an issue with the 3C.
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nieuwguyski
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When was the last time you thoroughly swabbed out your mouthpiece?
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wilder
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy Del wrote:
Like above. Pop on your mask, wash your hands and take yourself, trumpet and some hand sanitiser off to the local GP and explain things.

This can be anything at all from an erupting wisdom tooth, TMJ, an impaction, infection, or simply poor playing habits.

Once you have got that out of the way and dealt with any issues that arise - you may well be sent off to see your dentist as well - THEN go get some lessons from a good teacher!

A mouthpiece change with no real reason why (playing less well than desired is not a reason) may just mask the issue leaving you in the lurch down the track. I have had kids tell me they can't do this or that because it hurts / is uncomfortable, etc. etc. My answer is that it should not hurt, etc. so something is wrong. Let's wrk to fix the wrong and hen you can play easily!

cheers

Andy
I CONCUR. jw
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Phoenix864
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks all for the responses. Some additional context:

I purchased a new horn in January of this year - I've given the horn a thorough cleaning every 5/6 weeks and swab the leadpipe at the end of every day. While I would love to do a PVA on the horn, I don't think the stock alignment is too bad at all.

I began to notice my issues by February, and when they persisted I rased them with my instructor. He recommended looking at a different mouthpiece with a more open throat, but with COVID-19 I unfortunately have not been able to try anything - I have been playing the same mouthpiece, Bb, and C trumpet for the past 4 months, so I unfortunately I do not have anything to compare my setup against.

Between the time of my rasing my concerns and the end of in-person lessons, my instructor did not raise any concerns regarding my embouchure. Since the end of in-person lessons four months ago my issues have continued to get worse, so either I have sunken further into poor playing habits or some physical development has become more significant.

Regarding seeing a dentist - I'll definitely act on that. I'm well overdue for my dentist appointment (my original appointment was scheduled right when COVID-19 hit locally). I plan on going to the dentist in a few days.

Andy Del/wilder/JeffM729 - I presume I should ask them about any irregularities, problems, or developments in my dental structure? I guess it's possible that my wisdom teeth have further erupted or my jaw has grown, possibly causing my issues with the mouthpiece. As I'm still pretty young, my dental makeup six years ago was significantly different than my dental makeup today. Maybe my face has just changed enough that the 3c no longer jives with me?

Unfortunately, getting out to a general doctor probably isn't possible - I previously went to the doctors at my university's health center, but I don't expect them to be taking general appointments for months. Either way, I'm hoping the dentist should be able to provide good information.

Regarding lessons, I really have been hoping to meet in-person with an established player to discuss my issues. Understandably, my current instructor is not ready to meet in-person. Is getting in-person help important enough that I should attempt to seek out a lesson with another local pro?

giakara - thanks for the recommendation. I'll definitely keep that setup in mind if I end up doing an online order.

hibidogrulez - the Harrelson 5mm system looks great - $450 for the 9pc kit might be doable if it's really worth it. I'm guessing that kit includes 3 complete mouthpieces? I've also reached out to a local shop to see if they have a Warburton mouthpiece kit - hopefully that would allow me to also try a variety of pieces without needing to drop quite as much cash.

nltrumpet/kehaulani - I definitely plan on trying a piece with a larger bore, thanks for the recommendation.

JayKosta - I'll try to get some idea of what the gap looks like, though as gap is measured in pretty fine increments I'm not too confident in my ability to get a good reading. I might check around to see if a local shop has a gap measurement tool.

nieuwguyski - I swab the piece out every few days with some alcohol and a mouthpiece brush.
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wilder
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi. Very nice of you to address everyone. I am not in the medical field but trumpet wise this does not add up. I will just reinforce what's been said that you need to see a Doctor and get examined. I would do that first. If you pass that hurdle then see a Dentist who will just look for infections and such which are the only things that would cause your kind of problem. You get past that then its time for a player that knows how to teach. Don't screw around on your own, get going! Good luck! jw
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deleted_user_687c31b
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phoenix864 wrote:
Since the end of in-person lessons four months ago my issues have continued to get worse, so either I have sunken further into poor playing habits or some physical development has become more significant.

Thing is, it's hard for us to judge because well, we're not you.

But it's not impossible that your gear is the problem. About 2 years ago I went to the USA for the first time for about a month and I was dead set on bringing a trumpet so I could play. I'd acquired an Olds Recroding a while before which really helped my sound, playing and technique. However, I wasn't about to take that along on the plane, so I brought my old Getzen. I played practiced dilligently that month and even so, I noticed my technique and embouchure slipped back to my 'old ways'. When I got back home and started playing my Olds again, things fortunately went back on track. Even now, I occasionally pickup my Getzen (and I can play it much better than I used to back when it was my main horn) but I try to use it sparingly, because it will affect my embouchure negatively if played for more than a few days in a row. Psychological, mechanical? I don't know. The horn is fine, so that at least isn't it.

tl;dr It *can* be your gear...but it can also be something else. Getting a professional teacher's input (preferably in person) might be your best bet. I wish you much luck in getting to the root of the problem.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thoughts:

- I have no idea if this is a physical thing or some medical thing. I suspect not, but I really have no basis for that or than going by what I read.
- This is also likely not a issue that would be fixed by getting a different mouthpiece. If you start to experience difficulties that you haven't before and you haven't changed equipment, then the change is likely you.
- Which mean that you've changed something in the way you play that is causing these issues you describe. I'm not even going to try to figure out what's going on, but there is tension, pressure, some constriction in your playing that wasn't there before, but it is now. It happens.

I took about 6 years off playing seriously (or anything outside of teaching, essentially). I have slowly gotten back into it, though I don't practice consistently. This past winter I ran into a brief period were I was getting more backpressure than normal in the moderate upper register. I might have been having a slight cold or something as well, but whatever it was wasn't what I usually do. It was happening a few times over the span of a few weeks. I took a few days off and began again from some basic exercises and tried to eliminate this from my playing. I don't remember how it went, but it must have gone Ok as I didn't seem to have the issue later this spring before the COVID.

We're not machines. Sometimes a bug crops up in our playing and we have to work it out. It's one reason that all the teachers I studied with had some very simple basic maintenance routines to keep things working properly. I've also developed some on my own in the years I've been playing.

Good luck.
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zaferis
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

IMO the gap adjustment, though important, is the last thing to mess with in mouthpiece setup. Its affect is subtle, as long as the gap is within a reasonable range, the affect is far less of an issue than rim diameter, rim shape, cup depth/shape, throat size, and backbore shape.

I've also noticed that the impact of setting up a mouthpiece to be a two piece design (i.e. "cut for sleeves") to fit a gap adjusting system has as much impact on the play as does the gap itself.

The mouthpiece "safari" can be challanging and there is really no other manner than to try, preferably with instructor/mentor guidance, a variety of mouthpieces and designs.

Like you I played a Bach 3C for years, having downsized from a Bach 1.5C. Several years ago, to get a mouthpiece to fit a Flugel that has a small receiver I quickly picked up a Curry 3FL.. not knowing anything about the Curry line. I found I liked the result so much (comfort and playability of that mouthpiece) that I ordered a Curry 3C for trumpet.. It works so much better for me that I made the move and have not looked back.
Since finding Curry mouthpieces, my range improved, and is still getting stronger (I'm 60), consistency day to day is far better, and my endurance is off the charts (yesterday I played a 90 minute late morning quartet reherasal, folowed by 5 web-based lessons (which I play during), then an eveing concert (civic band), in which I am the principle player, playing 1st and solo for every selection of a 70 minute. Finishing strong and comfortable.
Not bragging but trying to show that the right fit / match can make a difference. I do have a setup that I can adjust the gap with the same pieces - but find little to no improvement. Prefering the play of Curry's stock mouthpieces.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seasonal allergies causing head / sinus congestion?
For allergy or decongestant pill - I prefer the ones that last for 4-6 hours rather than the 24-hour type.

Jay
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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juanc
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion: if you are looking for a Patrick mouthpiece replacement, I will go with his 3C, it might be similar to what you currently play but most probably will give you more efficiency, comfort and an easier upper register etc. I wouldn't go with an expensive option like Harrelson before you figure out what the problem is, I think there's something that is not working properly for you (embouchure, too much tension, etc.), go back to basics!!
Best Regards, Juan
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rmch
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"When playing in the lower register the horn just feels 'stuffy' and tight."

This makes me wonder if you're blowing too hard.

Some more questions: did you used to have an easier time in the upper register or was it always challenging? What horn were you playing on before January and what are you playing on now? Do you use tongue arch to compress your airstream in the upper register? A skype lesson with your/a teacher could maybe help. DM if you like.
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Phoenix864
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks all for the additional advice.

I'm hoping to set up an online meet with my instructor to discuss my issues, identify embouchure problems, and attempt to determine whether I would see substantial benefit from a piece change. It's certainly possible my problem stems from my embouchure (especially with the lack of in-person lessons), though it's nearly impossible to be confident, as embouchure problems are difficult to self-diagnose - I plan on getting some embouchure feedback from a capable teacher before proceeding with a mouthpiece purchase.

JayKosta - I personally don't feel my problems stem from seasonal allergies. I've been noticing these issues since February, so the allergies would need to last over the tail-end of winter, through spring, and well into summer. The stuffiness/pressure only comes up when playing - otherwise, I feel fine.

rmch - I've experimented with a variety of air pressures - when I reduced the pressure I found myself frequently airballing notes. I still plan to bring up backpressure with my teacher to verify I'm not going overboard on the horn. I feel that shortly after I got the horn accessing the upper register was easier - however, I've gotten stronger since then, so my understanding of what is 'easier' has most likely shifted. I previously was playing on a Bach AB190S, switching from it to a Schagerl James Morrison Meister. I would say the JM is a bit more of a commercial/jazz horn than the Bach, but the difference between the two isn't massive. I would describe my tongue position as just in front of the lower teeth in the lower register, before moving to around the base of my upper teeth as I ascend into the upper register.
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