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James B. Quick
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Joined: 17 Feb 2003
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Location: La Crosse, WI
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 Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If the abdomen extends, then the stomach is going along for the ride, along with everything else in there. |
In where? The stomach is above the diaphragm, it isn't even in the abdomen. Why use anatomical terms if they are so grossly incorrect?
jbq |
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Pete Anderson
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Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| nyctrumpeter wrote: | We're not talking about Joe Shmo, its Roger Ingram and Bobby Shew. This is what they do.
They have studied extensively the trumpet, the embouchure and the workings of the body and how they all work together. |
They are still human and thus capable of being wrong from time to time.
| Quote: | I've heard big name players and teachers say things that were completely wrong - that doesn't mean they're actually bad teachers and duping their students.
Really? Not me. They didn't get to where they are by spouting wrong info. |
See above about being human and being wrong sometimes. I don't think anyone, even Roger Ingram, would claim to be 100% perfect about everything all the time.
In any case we've taken this thread way off track for no good reason so let's go back to talking about lungs and diaphragms and stuff ok? |
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nyctrumpeter
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Pete Anderson wrote: |
In any case we've taken this thread way off track for no good reason so let's go back to talking about lungs and diaphragms and stuff ok? |
If your going to discuss this topic you have to acknowledge that Ingram and Shew are amongst the very few who are the foremost authority on this subject. I refer you to the video postings from earlier.
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2011 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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You don't see babies getting breathing lessons...because its natural.
Why would we do anything but what we were intended to do by our physical biology? That's why I say too much thought.
Kalijah is dead on...period.
"Compression" like Kalijah said is necessary to play...the air must be under pressure. However, by taking the breath full and natural...we can rely on part of the compression being created by the "elastic recoil" of the lungs instead of a larger percentage on our musculature.
As soon as there are steps to breathing...I argue..too much thought.
Three steps to trumpet playing:
1: Imagination of the sound you want to play with (preferably a good one)
2: Full natural breath...with no unnecessary tension
3: The realization of that sound in the physical world fueled by air. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:54 am Post subject: |
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The elastic recoil is stored energy. Like an archer pulling his bow. The work is done, and the energy is stored, on the inhale. And released on exhale.
But on loud high notes the active muscular exhalation is probably the greater contributor to air pressure. |
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kalijah
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:10 am Post subject: |
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nyc, you are engaging in a non-argument. i attempted to help the OP with some basic understanding of air pressure in the lungs. I am correct in my advice.
I did not, in this thread, disagree with any specific point made by Roer Ingram or Bobby Shew. However, I agree with most of their advice and respectfully disagreed in other threads on some of their points with very good reason. But these will hardly prevent me or anyone understanding the gist of their advice and putting it to use.
We get it! You like their advice and it helped you. We understand.
Last edited by kalijah on Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:12 am; edited 2 times in total |
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hvand
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Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Location: Chapel Hill North Carolina
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:07 am Post subject: |
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I admit to having had a great deal of skepticism about "reverse", "wedge", or "compression" breathing. I've seen the youtube videos, read the articles and posts, and have even heard Bobby Shew describe it in person. Quite frankly, it never made a great deal of sense. Like Darryl and several others have pointed out, the terminology does not do the physics or physiology justice.
Then I read Frank Campos' description of Hara and the Reverse Breath and something clicked. It's not a technique I use all the time but it's quite helpful in the upper register.
I suspect this thread (and countless others) were born when a TH member had a similar "Aha" moment.
Keep at it gentlemen, there's a lot of wheat in that chaff.
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Pete Anderson
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| nyctrumpeter wrote: | | If your going to discuss this topic you have to acknowledge that Ingram and Shew are amongst the very few who are the foremost authority on this subject. I refer you to the video postings from earlier. |
Sure. I don't know much about either of their playing philosophies but I'll take your word for it. I just can't help but play devil's advocate on the internet when I see people being dogmatic. It's a sickness. I probably need help. |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:22 am Post subject: |
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OK - I'm back from vacation. The Grand Canyon was amazing! And, we had much fun trudging thru the snow in the White Mtns and watching deer in the front yard of my Aunt's house.
I can tell you this - when hiking the Canyon my chest was open and up, and my abs were comfortably snug as I breathed fully in a relaxed and athletic manner. As well, when standing out on a ledge over the Canyon letting the Great Spirit speak truth to me, my abs were snug and my chest was expanded, open and up. Just like when I play the trumpet.
Words have power, and there is power in words. Using words correctly and using the correct words gives you power. The stomach man sounds like a fool because he has no power with the words he chooses to use and the way he uses them.
I already said it earlier, and others that know how to play have agreed. It is truth:
| Quote: | | If one ALLOWS himself to take a full, yogic breath, one will notice that the lower ab region initially distends slightly as the flexing diaphragm pushes the organs down. As one continues, the rib cage expands and the ab region pulls back in. One may or may not raise shoulders at the height of the breath. When holding, the chest will be up and out with the abs comfortably snug. For upper register playing, one can set the abs in at this point to further compress the air in the lungs. |
All the physics talk is interesting, but is most valuable to those that design the instruments. It has very little value to those that actually play them.
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stanton
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Crazy Nate...
I don't see where you get any room to call anyone a fool for using synonyms to describe an action. Its done every day and it funny how folks seem to get the message without technical verbal precision.
As an example...Frank G. Campos writes in the ITG Journal....
"With normal every day breathing known as abdominal breathing, the belly bulges out slightly as we inhale and goes slightly back in when we exhale. Right now, take a few easy, full breaths. Notice that your belly goes out when you inhale..... when you suck the belly area in and when you exhale, move the belly out..."
As I said before, Charlie Schleuter's original trumpet teacher used the term "stomach"... Didn't seem to hurt Charlie very much.
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Last edited by stanton on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stanton
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| hvand wrote: | I admit to having had a great deal of skepticism about "reverse", "wedge", or "compression" breathing. I've seen the youtube videos, read the articles and posts, and have even heard Bobby Shew describe it in person.
Then I read Frank Campos' description of Hara and the Reverse Breath and something clicked. It's not a technique I use all the time but it's quite helpful in the upper register.
I suspect this thread (and countless others) were born when a TH member had a similar "Aha" moment.
. |
Thanks for posting Campos article. It explains a lot. As I practice, I find myself modifying the approach, but oveall I notice improved consistant breath support. I'm sure after a month or so I'll have more to report.
Thanks again!
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veery715
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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It is easy to lose sight of the useful in our haste to defend our opinions, and then these discussions quickly morph into semantic arguments and pi&&ing contests. Concepts are typically built on metaphor, but I guess we are a literal bunch.
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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Oh please, stanton - I never called you a fool. Power of words, dude. And I know what a belly is. You might find that using that term is more useful to you than stomach, which is already in use for a specific body part.
As for Schleuter, there are many that achieve greatness transcending what they were taught.
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swthiel
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| kalijah wrote: | The elastic recoil is stored energy. Like an archer pulling his bow. The work is done, and the energy is stored, on the inhale. And released on exhale.
But on loud high notes the active muscular exhalation is probably the greater contributor to air pressure. |
Here's a fun thing to try.
I can hold my breath by controlling the muscles that drive inhalation. I can also hold my breath by keeping my mouth shut (yeah, I actually can do that!  ) and relaxing the "inhalation muscles". If I do the latter, I can get a sense of how much pressure is generated by the "elastic recoil" kalijah mentions. In the comments below, I'm thinking of holding my breath the second way.
So try taking a small, shallow breath, and hold your breath. Note the pressure you feel in your oral cavity.
Then take a somewhat deeper breath, and hold it. When I do this, I feel a noticably higher pressure than I do for a shallow breath.
Finally, take a really deepe breath, and again hold it -- even higher pressure in the oral cavity.
Note that pressure generated by elastic recoil is pressure for which you don't have to do additional work (you've already "paid for it") -- any pressure you add through additional effort is on top of this. It's almost as if brass playing were no harder than deep breathing ...
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JRoyal
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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| swthiel wrote: | | Note that pressure generated by elastic recoil is pressure for which you don't have to do additional work (you've already "paid for it") -- any pressure you add through additional effort is on top of this. It's almost as if brass playing were no harder than deep breathing ... |
Exactly!
Also, we normally engage more musculature anyway to keep the pressure constant as we expel air and get to the end of our capacity. Our muscle can work against each other, play as freely as you can since things get tighter anyway as we ascend, start tight and you don't have very far to go before you have locked yourself down. |
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ljazztrm
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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hvand - That's quite an excellent article by Campos. Thanks very much for posting it. I can tell you that actively implenting the wedge breath has really been helping me. Doing 60 times a day for 21 days seems like a great natural way to work this into one's playing.
Also, another thing to consider from that article. Campos refers to holding out a very soft middle G for 2 minutes. I feel like a slouch on this.. I've worked it up to one minute so far, but I think the benefits could be great insofar as reduced pressure possibly and the like. I'd be curious as to how long the other posters can hold out this G. I'm gonna work it up to 2 minutes and observe the effects on my playing. I'm a full time player and anything I can do to become more efficient, whilst not disturbing my playing mechanism, is very welcome! All the best, Lex
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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I've held the ppp G for 20 mins, then rested 10 and did another 20 on C. I got it from Cat Anderson's book. I did it every couple of days for a few months, and yes it helped. I'm thinking of doing it again.
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ljazztrm
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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R u messing with me Crazy?? I meant ONE breath my friend...
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ljazztrm
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| Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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And NOT circular breathing dude! I think Campos is talking about this as an exercise to strengthen the blowing muscles and, perhaps, capacity...
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 7:51 am Post subject: |
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HAHA! Sorry, I haven't read the article yet. Context is everything! No, of course I didn't mean in one breath.
I haven't actually timed how long I can hold one breath. I can play Clarke studies 1-5 as written in one breath . . . oh, that's one breath per numbered exercise . . .
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