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ljazztrm
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 Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2011 8:18 am Post subject: |
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I'm surprised no one is curious and wants to give it a try... I already notice less pressure and effort..translating into increased range and easier, bigger sound.. Got a long jazz gig tonight and can really measure the effects so far then.
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RogerIngram
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Joined: 24 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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Whatever...
The Yoga breath works for me. The video filmed at the NAMM show was a bit forced and done under uncomfortable circumstances. Have you ever been to a music manufacturer's convention? Basically all you hear is a lot of trumpet players picking up new horns and trying to see how high they can play on them. Only about .01% of the trumpet players who attend those conventions even has a clue on how to try out a new horn. I was asked to give a brief "clinic" on the yoga breath in the middle of all of THAT and then someone filmed it and posted it on youtube. I don't consider the NAMM video to be the best explanation of the yoga breath I've ever given. Sometimes I wish youtube would just die a painful death and leave the planet forever. Discussions/debates like this one are often spawned from youtube videos and are completely unnecessary.
I learned the yoga breath mostly from Bobby Shew. I also had a couple of trumpet lessons with Bud Brisbois when I was a kid where he briefly discussed it with me. I sat next to Lynn Nicholson for a couple of years in Las Vegas during the early 1980's and HE told me a little bit about it. I was on Maynard's band and watched him use it every night. I picked things up as I went along and I employ my own version of the yoga breath based on information I've gathered about it through the years. I find the word "expert" offensive.
The yoga breath works for many people and it just happens to work for me in what I do. Take it for what it is. It's food for thought on the whole breathing thing. You don't HAVE to use it; make your own decisions.
I wrote about the yoga breath in my book "Clinical Notes on Trumpet Playing." THAT is the best explanation I've ever given about the yoga breath and how to develop/practice it.
A couple of points here: first of all the purpose of learning the yoga breath is NOT how to fill up with as much air as humanly possible. The purpose of learning the yoga breath is to know what to do internally with varying amounts of inhaled air. Two of the biggest obstacles in the development of a reliable upper register is over-breathing and over-blowing. Next, within the parameters of the yoga breath explanation, brass players need to personalize the breath for THEMSELVES. Example: if you lined up Bobby Shew, Wayne Bergeron, Greg Gisbert and me against a wall and had all four of us play a glissando from high C to double high C and back down simultaneously in unison, each one of us would look slightly different from the other in our usage of the yoga breath even though the four of us are employing what we individually feel is the classic yoga breath as described in the book "Science of Breath" by Yogi Ramacharaka and the steps thereof.
Learn to take things "tongue-in-cheek," don't take yourselves so seriously and CHILL...it's only a trumpet.
Roger
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Pete Anderson
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Joined: 21 Feb 2008
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Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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What a classy guy  |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| James B. Quick wrote: | | Quote: | | If the abdomen extends, then the stomach is going along for the ride, along with everything else in there. |
In where? The stomach is above the diaphragm, it isn't even in the abdomen. Why use anatomical terms if they are so grossly incorrect?
jbq |
While I can't speak for your personal anatomy, I can tell you that my stomach is not above my diaphragm. 
The diaphragm separates the cardiopulmonary organs (which are above the diaphragm) from the digestive organs (which are below the diaphragm).
I haven't read all of this long thread so forgive me if I step on any toes, but:
I noticed way back in 1980 while watching Bobby Shew play that he breathed and played exactly the way Claude Gordon was teaching me to breathe and play (though if asked, I'm sure Bobby would disagree vehemently). His chest was up in a position of good posture, and he didn't try to stick his stomach out while playing. And when I looked at the video of Roger Ingram explaining his yoga breath (aka wedge breath) I saw that aside from perhaps a slightly more complicated method of inhaling, the main emphasis was again, exactly what Claude taught and wrote about (not sticking the stomach out while playing) and involving all the available muscles of both inspiration and expiration. When he told how Maynard told him to "pin his belly boutton to his spine" I thought to myself, while I've never used that teminology, it does describe the way it feels when I am playing. In fact, when Roger discussed how a prize fighter or a baseball player wouldn't be trying to stick his stomach out while doing what he does, and neither should us brass players I wondered if he didn't read Claude's "Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing", given that very similar examples appear on page 15 of the book.
In the end, I think most of the disagreements about breathing come from different semantics attempting to describe the same thing. Air can only go to one place - the lungs. The way I see it, if you maintain a position of good posture with your chest up, take in a full, relaxed breath, and blow the air out while maintaining that position of good posture, you will be utilizing all the muscles available and you will be breathing and blowing correctly. As Claude taught me, if you keep your chest up and stay relaxed, you cannot breathe incorrectly.
Best wishes, and Happy New Year to one and all!
John Mohan
P.S. Edit: Added the picture.
Last edited by John Mohan on Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:33 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| RogerIngram wrote: | Whatever...
The Yoga breath works for me. The video filmed at the NAMM show was a bit forced and done under uncomfortable circumstances. Have you ever been to a music manufacturer's convention? Basically all you hear is a lot of trumpet players picking up new horns and trying to see how high they can play on them. |
Sounds like last year's Chicago Trumpet Hang!
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stanton
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Joined: 01 Aug 2007
Posts: 726
Location: Skokie, Illinois
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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My thanks to Roger and John for jumping in...
The original intent of the post was to describe how I kinesthetically translated everything from a concept to an internal picture, to action. After a week of messing with it I've made some adjustments and some additional discoveries.
The bottom line is that Roger created a catalyst that sparked something that was missing in my mechanics. The result is more facility, a good supported sound, more connectivity from note to note and more useable range. I suspect that it has increased my endurance as well, but won't know for sure until after the break when I get to try to play in a large room with a bunch more players.
If I helped at least one other person, I deem the post as a success. If I haven't, it helped me think thru a process that will be one more building block that I can build on top of.
Happy New Year to all.
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nyctrumpeter
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Joined: 23 Feb 2008
Posts: 1992
Location: New York City
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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| RogerIngram wrote: | Whatever...
The Yoga breath works for me. The video filmed at the NAMM show was a bit forced and done under uncomfortable circumstances. Have you ever been to a music manufacturer's convention? Basically all you hear is a lot of trumpet players picking up new horns and trying to see how high they can play on them. Only about .01% of the trumpet players who attend those conventions even has a clue on how to try out a new horn. I was asked to give a brief "clinic" on the yoga breath in the middle of all of THAT and then someone filmed it and posted it on youtube. I don't consider the NAMM video to be the best explanation of the yoga breath I've ever given. Sometimes I wish youtube would just die a painful death and leave the planet forever. Discussions/debates like this one are often spawned from youtube videos and are completely unnecessary.
I learned the yoga breath mostly from Bobby Shew. I also had a couple of trumpet lessons with Bud Brisbois when I was a kid where he briefly discussed it with me. I sat next to Lynn Nicholson for a couple of years in Las Vegas during the early 1980's and HE told me a little bit about it. I was on Maynard's band and watched him use it every night. I picked things up as I went along and I employ my own version of the yoga breath based on information I've gathered about it through the years. I find the word "expert" offensive.
The yoga breath works for many people and it just happens to work for me in what I do. Take it for what it is. It's food for thought on the whole breathing thing. You don't HAVE to use it; make your own decisions.
I wrote about the yoga breath in my book "Clinical Notes on Trumpet Playing." THAT is the best explanation I've ever given about the yoga breath and how to develop/practice it.
A couple of points here: first of all the purpose of learning the yoga breath is NOT how to fill up with as much air as humanly possible. The purpose of learning the yoga breath is to know what to do internally with varying amounts of inhaled air. Two of the biggest obstacles in the development of a reliable upper register is over-breathing and over-blowing. Next, within the parameters of the yoga breath explanation, brass players need to personalize the breath for THEMSELVES. Example: if you lined up Bobby Shew, Wayne Bergeron, Greg Gisbert and me against a wall and had all four of us play a glissando from high C to double high C and back down simultaneously in unison, each one of us would look slightly different from the other in our usage of the yoga breath even though the four of us are employing what we individually feel is the classic yoga breath as described in the book "Science of Breath" by Yogi Ramacharaka and the steps thereof.
Learn to take things "tongue-in-cheek," don't take yourselves so seriously and CHILL...it's only a trumpet.
Roger |
Thanks Roger for being one of the best educators in the trumpet world. Your teachings and experience will always inspire my playing and affect my career in a positive way.
All the best in 2012!
Ryan Resky
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EdMann
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Posts: 2481
Location: The Big Valley
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | RogerIngram wrote: | Whatever...
The Yoga breath works for me. The video filmed at the NAMM show was a bit forced and done under uncomfortable circumstances. Have you ever been to a music manufacturer's convention? Basically all you hear is a lot of trumpet players picking up new horns and trying to see how high they can play on them. |
Sounds like last year's Chicago Trumpet Hang!
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There's a good reason not to go. I've been to NAMM over the last three years an it is one of the most annoying experiences. It's like a chorus of salsa players working on their favorite 8va jazz licks all at once. They should set up a room for these guys and let the rest of us try some brass in peace.
I've worked on a version of this breath since I was kid, got a refresher from Roger's great book and now I'm experimenting with the reverse pant breath a la Frank Campos. Frankly I find it's best not to think about it too much if the results are there. Sort of like basketball (watching the Laker game now) and when things are clicking, they seem to just flow across the floor, everyone gallops along and the ball goes in. When they're not, the body language changes, the players are laboring, nothing goes in. Good formula for winning, I say.
Happy new year,
ed
Last edited by EdMann on Sat Dec 31, 2011 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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dbacon
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Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 8592
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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DB
Last edited by dbacon on Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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garrett901
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Joined: 07 Jan 2009
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Location: Vacaville CA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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Thank You Mr. Ingram !
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trumpetchops
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Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 2644
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:26 am Post subject: |
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| RogerIngram wrote: |
The yoga breath works for many people and it just happens to work for me in what I do. Take it for what it is. It's food for thought on the whole breathing thing. You don't HAVE to use it; make your own decisions.
Learn to take things "tongue-in-cheek," don't take yourselves so seriously and CHILL...it's only a trumpet.
Roger |
This is the best advice I've heard on here. We look at a great player like Roger and want to play like him so emulate what he does. The thing is that we are all different. Different in the way we play, the way we describe things and the way we interpret what is said. On top of that, (I think) his breathing method is only one part of the equation.
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crzytptman
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Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 10124
Location: Escondido California
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:58 am Post subject: |
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John Mohan wrote:
| Quote: | I noticed way back in 1980 while watching Bobby Shew play that he breathed and played exactly the way Claude Gordon was teaching me to breathe and play (though if asked, I'm sure Bobby would disagree vehemently). His chest was up in a position of good posture, and he didn't try to stick his stomach out while playing. And when I looked at the video of Roger Ingram explaining his yoga breath (aka wedge breath) I saw that aside from perhaps a slightly more complicated method of inhaling, the main emphasis was again, exactly what Claude taught and wrote about (not sticking the stomach out while playing) and involving all the available muscles of both inspiration and expiration. When he told how Maynard told him to "pin his belly boutton to his spine" I thought to myself, while I've never used that teminology, it does describe the way it feels when I am playing. In fact, when Roger discussed how a prize fighter or a baseball player wouldn't be trying to stick his stomach out while doing what he does, and neither should us brass players I wondered if he didn't read Claude's "Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing", given that very similar examples appear on page 15 of the book.
In the end, I think most of the disagreements about breathing come from different semantics attempting to describe the same thing. Air can only go to one place - the lungs. The way I see it, if you maintain a position of good posture with your chest up, take in a full, relaxed breath, and blow the air out while maintaining that position of good posture, you will be utilizing all the muscles available and you will be breathing and blowing correctly. As Claude taught me, if you keep your chest up and stay relaxed, you cannot breathe incorrectly.
|
OK - Claude Gordon, Bobby Shew, Roger Ingram, Maynard Ferguson, John Mohan . . . good enough for me!
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:57 am Post subject: |
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That's quite a compliment to include me in the same sentence with those other players. Thank you! I am also thankful I am (appropriately) mentioned last on the list.
Best wishes,
John Mohan |
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jouko
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Joined: 02 Nov 2002
Posts: 147
Location: Finland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Hi,
Trumpetplaying is not difficult. But we make it to be difficulty for us.
Kind Regards Jouko Moilanen
Helsinki, Finland |
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Pops
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:30 am Post subject: |
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Sadly instead of discussing the merits of an idea; a few people wanted to argue about semantics.
I am 54 and I have never heard anyone say the word abdomen. In the gym people work to change the appearance of their stomach, gut...
"I'm working on my stomach today."
You know exactly what that means. Arguing about the words is childish.
It is impossible to use words that are perfect because words are regional.
If the semantics police had bothered to look in the dictionary they would have found that stomach means abdomen.
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garrett901
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:59 am Post subject: |
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How about this:
http://www.rogeringram.com/science-of-breath.pdf
Read it, Do it, Play better !
Or not, your choice
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Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
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crzytptman
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Joined: 03 Sep 2003
Posts: 10124
Location: Escondido California
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Pops wrote: | Sadly instead of discussing the merits of an idea; a few people wanted to argue about semantics.
I am 54 and I have never heard anyone say the word abdomen. In the gym people work to change the appearance of their stomach, gut...
"I'm working on my stomach today."
You know exactly what that means. Arguing about the words is childish.
It is impossible to use words that are perfect because words are regional.
If the semantics police had bothered to look in the dictionary they would have found that stomach means abdomen. |
Pops, I have learned a lot from your posts and videos, but I disagree here. Only because of what Claude Gordon wrote in "Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing". He was countering the popular technique of pushing out the "stomach", and focusing on building that area as a focal point of the breath and strength for playing trumpet. He corrected the terminology as a way to reinforce where the air actually goes, and guide players into letting the natural breathing and blowing apparatus work. So, even though in casual usage in Texas one refers to their abdomen or gut as a stomach, reminding players of the functions of stomach and lungs is beneficial to proper body response.
Oh, people write dictionaries and can put anything in them that they want.
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stanton
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Pops wrote: | | Sadly instead of discussing the merits of an idea; a few people wanted to argue about semantics. |
You are so right. Its too bad that they comandeered what could have been a real discussion about how to play better. Its too bad that egos get in the way of productive discussions.
FWIW, I started experimenting with the idea sometime mid December and since have had a metamorphasis of ideas and concepts which used the basic concept as a launching pad. During that time period my sound, endurance, range and articulation all improved... AS WELL AS EASE OF PLAYING. It has provided a level of confidence in my playing that I haven't experienced in a long time.
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Its too bad that egos get in the way of productive discussions. |
You are forgiven.
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Jeff_Purtle
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Joined: 14 Mar 2003
Posts: 934
Location: Greenville, South Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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This August I will have Philippe Schartz do a never before seen presentation with HD video of the diaphragm while playing trumpet. I have already seen the video and it's totally unique and better than anything previously done.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, then High Definition video says even more. This project was collaborated between medical professionals in the UK and Belgium. Everything will be in layman's terms and easy for us non-medical people to quickly understand. You have to see it.
Last year Dr. Larry Miller did an excellent presentation about his study on breathing. Larry was perhaps more diplomatic than Claude in explaining both types of breathing with their benefits and drawbacks.
This event is filled with practical info, incredible concerts, and a great time socializing with great players like Harry Kim, Bob O'Donnell, Philippe Schartz and others.
http://www.purtle.com/brass-conference
Jeff
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