Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:08 am Post subject:
Indiana !!!
Oh, man! Why cant any of these things be out here on the West Coast ?!?!
_________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org
Joined: 14 Mar 2003 Posts: 934 Location: Greenville, South Carolina
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:38 am Post subject:
Indiana?
This is the other Anderson University in Anderson, South Carolina.
Flights are not too bad from the west coast since Southwest now has service to the GSP (Greenville-Spartanburg International) airport. ATL and CLT are also close airports.
Joined: 07 Jan 2009 Posts: 1248 Location: Vacaville CA
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:34 am Post subject:
Ahh... you got me !!!
I have no trouble flying around the country hanging out with a bunch of horn players, getting good tip's and help. THAT WOULD BE FUN !!!
But I think my wife and boss would disagree. Bummer... _________________ Jeff Garrett
Playing "G" Soprano Bugle, Freelancers Alumni/Mini Corps
NorCal Horn Line Instructor/Musical Arranger
Kanstul G Soprano (Powerbore Bell)
Yamaha YTR-739T
Xtream XZ w/ XXX backbore GREAT MP!!!
http://freelancers-alumni.org
Joined: 21 Jan 2008 Posts: 158 Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Different Approach for Air Compression and Support
stanton wrote:
… Last week I stumbled onto a video of Roger Ingram. I was more familiar with his reputation than a player. So I decided to watch a basic presentation vid that he gave at NAMM.
In this demonstration, he showed how he inhaled, something I'd never seen before. His system is:
1) Inhale 5% and let stomach go out
2) Inhale another 40% WHILE PULLING STOMACH IN
3) Inhale the rest raising shouders
3a) Drop shoulders and play
When I first saw it, it looked really funky to me, especially the shoulder raising thing. But still, I was intrigued. I couldn't imagine inhaling WHILE pulling the stomach in...
But I tried it, and something interesting occurred. What I found was when I did it this way (push stomach out initially while inhaling, continuing to inhale while pulling in) that my lungs were filled with pre-compressed air! All I had to do was let it out!!! I thought this thing would introduce tension, but I seem to experience quite the opposite. Basically my body leans against the air.
I could not understand how this could possibly work. But what I noticed is that NOW, with this approach, when I need to push more air I AM NOW PUSHING FROM MY BACK!!! It feels much, much stronger.
Thoughts anyone???
Stanton
Well, Stanton, this has been a winner for me. I have been working on this these past few weeks and it is very easy to suck in the belly button tight just before playing a passage. I found that I could hit the high C's with much, much effort and accurately. Last night in playing lead, it seem that I have much more strength especially in the upper range.
Great concept. It almost is becoming a habit now. When playing on the staff, I get lazy and forget to draw in the stomach. But soon it will be a habit.
Thanks for posting this idea. Re-reading your post and checking out the video says it all.
Has anyone else worked on this?
Regards,
Dave _________________ Bb Bach Strad 37
Bb Selmer Model A20 (1953)
Joined: 01 Aug 2007 Posts: 726 Location: Skokie, Illinois
Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 3:30 pm Post subject:
Thanks Dave. I'm glad it was helpful.
I too have been working on the technique for a little over a month now. I have discovered that even though the approach stays fairly constant, it is not an all on/all off proposition. Here are a couple things I have taken away from the experience/experiment....
1) I can now use leverage instead of force for air movement.
2) Since I am using less effort to produce a steady airstream, it allows everything else to be looser and more relaxed. It sort of decouples the lips, tongue and "blow muscles". I am now learning to use my body instead of my face.
3) As I relax thru the leverage, I can focus on relaxing my chops and allowing the air to do more work.
4) PLAYABLE range is now another 1/2 ocatave above where it was.
5) Sound is bigger, more resonant (when I do it right).
6) "Endurance" (duration ability) has increased signifincantly.
7) Articulations have more of a ring to them.
As a side benefit, I am also now able to use my body as more or less a resonance chamber, much like a watermelon resonates when you thump it. The action feels a little like you would visualize a harp, where I try to resonate all the way down to my navel on lower notes, but as the notes get higher I tend to resonate from a much higher, smaller area. I should note I am still working on this and my description is the best visualization as I can think of.
As a side note, when I'm not trying to play in the upper register, I'm seeing how much I can relax everything, much as John Mohan has described Claude Gordon's deep breathing approach. Somehow I think there is a bridge between the two... But I am still working on this.
Thanks again for your reply. I'm glad it helped at least one other.
Best regards,
Stanton _________________ Schilke B1, Bach 37, 1969 Getzen Severinsen Eterna
Bach C 229 w Charlie Melk custom work
Getzen Eterna Cornet, Crappy old Yamaha 3valve Eb
Stanton Kramer "Signature" Mouthpiece
Joined: 21 Jan 2008 Posts: 158 Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:15 am Post subject:
stanton wrote:
Thanks Dave. I'm glad it was helpful.
I too have been working on the technique for a little over a month now. I have discovered that even though the approach stays fairly constant, it is not an all on/all off proposition. Here are a couple things I have taken away from the experience/experiment....
1) I can now use leverage instead of force for air movement.
2) Since I am using less effort to produce a steady airstream, it allows everything else to be looser and more relaxed. It sort of decouples the lips, tongue and "blow muscles". I am now learning to use my body instead of my face.
3) As I relax thru the leverage, I can focus on relaxing my chops and allowing the air to do more work.
4) PLAYABLE range is now another 1/2 ocatave above where it was.
5) Sound is bigger, more resonant (when I do it right).
6) "Endurance" (duration ability) has increased signifincantly.
7) Articulations have more of a ring to them.
Stanton
Stanton, for me this has been a nice breakthrough. I used to push out my stomach "against my belt buckle" expanding the gut for the medium-upper range thinking that would give me a bit more "power."
This technique of bringing the "belly button in toward the spine" is awesome in that the amount of effort is greatly reduced in the upper range. I can't see any down side of any of this. (I seldom need to go above high C). And Item 2 above is a good summary of what I also experience.
Thanks, and best regards,
Dave _________________ Bb Bach Strad 37
Bb Selmer Model A20 (1953)
Joined: 10 Oct 2008 Posts: 937 Location: Greensboro, NC
Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject:
mrsemman wrote:
What most men do not realize is that they are stomach breathers, which means that the stomach extends when they inhale a breath. The stomach extension lowers the diaphram and allows the lungs to expand. What Ingram is doing is simply creating more expansion and filling the lungs to capacity for blowing.
Makes sense.
Shouldn't that read: "What most PEOPLE do not realize......" _________________ Bob Grier
An Old Pro
Web Cam lessons for trumpet and jazz improvisation
www.bobgriermusic.com bgrierjr@triad.rr.com
The result was air that was compressed BEFORE playing. Consequently I don't have to work nearly so hard at compressing the air while playing.
The air is not compressed while you are inhaling. That is impossible.
All of the air in the lungs during inhalation is at about the same pressure. This pressure is ALWAYS less than atmospheric pressure, or inhalation will stop.
The muscles of inhalation must work against three things for the air in the lungs to be held below atmospheric pressure and for inhalation to be accomplished.
1. the resistance of the air flow of the air coming in. (hopefully not much resistance)
2. the elastic recoil (stretching) of the lung and other body tissues.
3. The weight of any body tissues acting on the lungs.
Once you stop, or reduce the action of the inhalation muscles. The elasticity of the lungs will then provide some force on the lungs which will create pressure. If more pressure is needed the muscles of exhalation can be engaged as required.
If the pressure of full lungs is excessive for a soft musical phrase then you can engage the inhale muscles to reduce the air pressure.
This can all happen naturally and without tension.
But the air is most certainly NOT compresses while you are inhaling.
stanton you are really confused and are over-complicating a simple process.
JBQ wrote:
Quote:
So now y'all can stop all of this bickering, adopt my terminology and methodology, and get on with your lives...
And they should. You are correct!
I'm responding to this educational comment by user kalijah so I will review it when reviewing my comment history (since I don't see a way to bookmark comments within the forum).
Also, this youtube video by Lynn Nicholson is related to that comment's discusion:
I watched Lynn's video. What he's illustrating is compression of the muscles to force a given volume of air through a smaller aperture. Clearly, to do that, the force moving the air must increase. That increase is facilitated by muscularity. However, that is not the same thing as "compressing the air." We don't actually compress air when playing trumpet. Keep in mind that "compressing air" means essentially "putting the same quantity of air in a smaller place than it was before we compressed it."
Try filling your mouth with air and closing it off. With enough air your cheeks puff. The reason your cheeks puff is because you don't have the muscularity to actually compress the air. If you were compressing the air your cheeks wouldn't puff.
The posts on this topic confuse semantics with science. When players refer to "compressing the air" while playing trumpet this expression just expresses an interpretive/illustrative concept. It does not reflect real science. That dichotomy is OK and we can still have productive conversations as long as we recognize the dichotomy and agree on what "compressing the air" really means in playing trumpet. _________________ HERMOKIWI
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:28 pm Post subject:
Creating 'air flow' for playing requires that the 'air cavity' in the body be reduced in volume, and that reduction in volume causes the compression (and increased internal air pressure) when the lip aperture restricts the amount of flow that can occur.
The classic scientific explanation of air flow is that air moves to a region of relatively lower pressure.
The main source of the compression is from the muscles that squeeze the lungs into a smaller volume. The volume of air within the lungs is much larger than the volume in the throat or oral cavity. So reducing the volume of the throat or oral cavity does not result in much actual compression or pressure increase. But tongue and jaw positioning can make the throat more open or closed, and that can affect how much air can be moved from the lungs and into the oral cavity.
People have differing options about what is the best way to do 'lung compression'.
You'll hear/read about using muscles from the stomach, abdomen, butt, back, chest, etc. It probably depends on which muscles are most developed, and which ones give better sensation feedback during use.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
Topics are Scientifically over analyzed and smack downs occur over semantics. What a Forum !! Truly entertaining to watch. Here is a video about being blinded by Science for your entertainment.
Joined: 24 Dec 2018 Posts: 3298 Location: Endwell NY USA
Posted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:15 am Post subject:
RussellDDixon wrote:
Topics are Scientifically over analyzed and smack downs occur over semantics.
---------------------------------
Certainly can happen, but it helps some people to get accurate information about the 'mechanics', and to not perpetuate myths.
Jay _________________ Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
The confusion is still flowing freely in this thread.
HERMOKIWI wrote:
Quote:
We don't actually compress air when playing trumpet. Keep in mind that "compressing air" means essentially "putting the same quantity of air in a smaller place than it was before we compressed it."
We actually DO compress the air if we are increasing the air pressure. However, the relatively small percentage of volume compression combined with the elasticity of the body make the volume reduction difficult to feel.
The terms "pressure" and "compression" are often used to express air pressure interchangeably by players. Any air that is pressurized by the action of exhalation is indeed also compressed in volume but not to a high degree for the air pressure we generate.
In any case they are not independent of each other. You can not have "compression" (volume reduction) without the accompanying pressure increase.
Relative to the ambient air pressure, and considering any residual positive or negative elastic pressure: The exhalation action raises the air pressure in the lugs. The inhalation action lowers the air pressure in the lungs. These can occur with or without air flow.
Originally the stomach goes out and air basically falls in. When the stomach is pulled in (while continuing the inhale), the air rises the chest area in a compressed state.
The OP continued to explain his inhalation in terms of "compression". The air can not be compressed and the inhalation continue. This is a fact. When the inhalation action STOPS there is significant elastic pressure for a full inhalation. But the air is not pressurized until the inhalation action stops.
That is not simply "semantics".
I watched the video above by LN. It seems there is a prevailing myth that the embouchure or tongue arch "compresses" the air. They do not.
This myth has been perpetuated in online videos.
There are two AND ONLY TWO contributions to air pressure as we play from the lung air.
1. Elastic air pressure.
2. Air pressure by muscular (exhalation) effort.
The residual, elastic, air pressure varies with the lung fullness and can be negative when air volume in the lungs is very low.
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