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Eb soprano mouthpieces


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sparxIV
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:53 pm    Post subject: sop. mps. Reply with quote

-from the Embouchure and Mouthpiece Manual By Vencent Bach c. '54

Models without letters have med.-deep cups......... for Bb instruments rich, full, clear Teutonic tone

'A' models have a very deep 'A' trumpet or cornet cup.........emit a mellow, lyric tone

'B' models have B-nat. tr. cup of med. depth

'C' models have med. shallow 'C' tr. cups..........symphony players who alternate between Bb, C & D trs.

'D' models have shallow 'D' tr. cups

'E' models have extremely shallow 'Eb' cups
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AJCarter
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am familiar with that catalog and for what the mouthpieces were originally designed for. I never said anyone was wrong, just that whatever works for you, works for you. But when you peel paint off the walls on say, a 7E whilst playing Sop.. might be time to move to a deeper cup and adjust sound concepts a bit.

Times have changed since '54 and I'm pretty sure the majority of people (let's guess 60% just for fun) would NOT play a 3E / 1.5E on their Eb for Haydn or if they were going to use it for Bartok Concerto.

Ted, I'm not trying to start stuff with you, honest. I am not a confrontational person, just defending my position.
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BengeTooter
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Re: sop. mps. Reply with quote

sparxIV wrote:
-from the Embouchure and Mouthpiece Manual By Vencent Bach c. '54

Models without letters have med.-deep cups......... for Bb instruments rich, full, clear Teutonic tone

'A' models have a very deep 'A' trumpet or cornet cup.........emit a mellow, lyric tone

'B' models have B-nat. tr. cup of med. depth

'C' models have med. shallow 'C' tr. cups..........symphony players who alternate between Bb, C & D trs.

'D' models have shallow 'D' tr. cups

'E' models have extremely shallow 'Eb' cups


Ted, this chart is helpful to me. I was not aware of the rationale behind the Bach number/letter scheme. I would like to find similar charts for other makers' MPs and understand each of their methods and proposed application.

Thanks. Please point me toward the Sparx design methodology.
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BengeTooter
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

silverstrad wrote:
In answer to your question about how mouthpiece selections vary from horn to horn, I try to keep the same rim while varying cup depth depending on the horn I am using.

For example:

Bb and C tpt: Hammond 4MLX
Eb Sop: Hammond 4MV (though I have used a 4MB and a 6MV in the past)
Piccolo: Hammond 4S
Bb cornet (american style): Hammond 4MB
Bb cornet (british style): Wick RW3B - off hand I'm not sure if the rim diameters are the same with this one, but it "feels" right

Hope this helps!


silverstrad, your experience aligns with my thinking. I'll probably try to stay with a similar rim size for each horn. Now, it remains to be seen if my Bb chops are sufficient for the demands of the Eb... I suspect that if I want to stay with a Bach 1 1/2D (or equiv. in another brand), I'll have to get in more reps. That said, my Bb range has improved steadily over the past year since starting to play Eb more regularly.

Thanks for your insight.
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BengeTooter
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AJCarter wrote:
Designed for it or not, it seems to be something that works. I guess I wasn't aware there was unwritten law for what mouthpieces to use on certain horns. I knew a guy who used a Bach 2 on his Getzen Sop and he sounded like gold.

If anyone thinks I'm saying the Wick S or Sparx 4E are bad mouthpieces, you can turn around and leave. They are quality designs and do work.. just not for me.

I liked the articulation I got on the Sparx but being a brighter player, the sound was too brilliant for my ears and when I got into the upper register (think the pieces for Nabba the last two years.. lots of High concert E flats..) it was too bright and stuck out.

Keeping options open and experimenting is a good thing. It's how we find what works for us.


You're right. As the old caveat says, "your mileage may vary".

Since I am not an expert on mouthpiece design, I am going to rely on those who are. Maybe it's my age (50s), but I have come to realize that when I don't "know", I'm better off assuming that the expert does... until I (or others) prove the expert wrong. That's why your and others' experience is so valuable... Thanks for sharing your experience.

MP designers have researched and tested what "works". Players (like us) have further tested those MPs on various horns,
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irith
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I do not play Eb cornet, Pickett Brass does make a mouthpiece designed specifically for the instrument that might be worth looking into. They do great work.
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BengeTooter
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The testing has begun. Until I'm proven wrong, I'm going to try to stay as close as possible, diameter-wise, to the mps I use for Bb trumpet and flugel work (Bach 1 1/2B and 1 1/2CFL).

Last week I tested a few Warburton tops and a #10 backbore. I chose the #10 because of what I have read about the need for a very open backbore for the higher-key horns. As for tops, I tried the 3S, 3SV and 4SV.

Without a doubt, the 3S produced the best sound, slotting and intonation. Low and high register were very strong. And, the difference between the 3S w/#10 and my previous MPs (Bach 2 1/2C and 7A) was stark. For me, the shallow bowl shaped cup and an open backbore seems to work very well.

I'm going to continue to try other mps... Bach 1D, 1E, 3D, 3E; Schilke 15, 15A4, 15B and others (if I can find a 'd' or 'e' backbore). If you know of other mps that have comparable values, please let me know.
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Nonsense Eliminator
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For what it's worth, I think trying a smaller diameter is worthwhile. I use the same diameter mouthpiece for everything (including lead playing and E flat trumpet) except piccolo trumpet and soprano cornet. It seems like the smaller diameter helps focus things on those horns. I play a Sparx 2B on cornet, and I've tried both the 2E and 3E on soprano -- the 3E was a dramatic improvement.
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MikeS
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: sop mps Reply with quote

[quote="sparxIV"]-Mouthpieces that will work well on Eb cornet:

Sparx 2C, 3C & 4C.....also the Sparx 4E

...[/quote]

The Sparx 4C worked very well for me when I had a turn at playing soprano. If you are used to a Bach 1 1/2 rim I think you would find the Sparx 2 rim to be in your comfort zone. A Sparx 2C might be worth a look.
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Flattergrub
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maurice Andre made a pretty good living playing a Bach 7DW on picc. Works great on sop. too. The "D" cup provides just a tad more warmth and is not quite as shrill as the "E" cup and the extra cup volume (depth) seems to help keep the upper range from going sharp. The wide rim also helps with endurance issues. For reference I normally play a Bach 1.5 C on Bb trumpet and a Wick RW4 for Bb cornet.
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think there are two sound concepts for soprano cornet:

A - Laser like for cutting through a loud band.
B - Lyrical and a bit thinner than a normal cornet but still mellow.

These days the dominant style seems to be #A which is why there are a lot of 7EW 10EW type mouthpieces being used. Personally I find that they don;t speak easily. It seems to take a lot of effort to get them to make a noise. Something like a Bach 6 makes more sense to me. I am using a McCann at the moment which compared to these is huge.
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sparxIV
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Soprano Mouthpieces Reply with quote

Hi Gordon,

Most, if not all of 'today's' brass band repertoire, requires the approach you listed as A. However, it is also necessary to achieve what you listed as B. I think that we often forget that 'today's' modern repertoire, to a degree, dictates the equipment that we use.

Although many of us often don't like it, the soprano cornet needs to fill somewhat of a 'lead trumpet' role in many modern brass band compositions and transcriptions.

Cheers,
Ted
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Soprano Mouthpieces Reply with quote

sparxIV wrote:
Hi Gordon,

Most, if not all of 'today's' brass band repertoire, requires the approach you listed as A. However, it is also necessary to achieve what you listed as B. I think that we often forget that 'today's' modern repertoire, to a degree, dictates the equipment that we use.

Although many of us often don't like it, the soprano cornet needs to fill somewhat of a 'lead trumpet' role in many modern brass band compositions and transcriptions.

Cheers,
Ted
www.sparxmusic.com


I agree Ted, but I feel we have lost something in the process. I wonder if the move to more free blowing Bb corners has made bands louder?
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:17 am    Post subject: Re: Soprano Mouthpieces Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
I wonder if the move to more free blowing Bb corners has made bands louder?

I know that I am often struck by the very wide volume range of the top flight brass bands. But playing softly well is an obvious weak spot in a lot of lower-level players and bands.

A really great BBB cornet section can get amazingly quiet, so that a less than "laser like" sop player can lay on top of it well.

My view is rather limited from the US about what is happening with brass bands on the other side of the pond, but I would blame it (at least in the US) on people playing "trumpet sounding instruments with a cornet wrap". Either because of the instrument itself, or the mouthpiece choices. A lot of people that weren't raised on them seem to really not get along well with the deeper mouthpieces such as a Wick, preferring to sneak in a 3C or something, especially those that struggle with range on them.

And it doesn't really seem to capture that British cornet sound if some of them are using proper mouthpieces, and others are not. One or two "trumpety" cornets will wash out the rest of the section rather quickly in tone color.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I remember the S Denis Wick Eb soprano mpc is a narrow and shallow shape mpc to enhance the upper register with yet a nice round sound and not schrill. I think the diameter is like a 16mm, the 4B for Bb cornet is like a 16.50mm so theS is between a 7 and 10 diameter, closer to a 10. It's a perfect mpc for brass band and solo stuff.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have just moved on to soprano for a temporary assignment (regional brass band competition in march) so will only have had about 6 weeks in total playing the instrument. Lots of hard work getting used to it! I'm playing on the bands schilke (spent the first week on their old Sovereign which to be honest was ok) Then came the mouthpiece issue.....
Currently using my GR66#6 cornet mouthpiece and its great - really nice sound - the good thing about using this piece is I can use it to play Bb too in my other band. People have told me not to play Bb while on the Sop but I cant see it being a problem ? The week before the competition I will just stick to the sop to make sure I'm fully focused on it.
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm playing Xeno Eb cornet on

Post-fire Warburton 10SV or 10M(Lexan Clear) with Kanstul 117 cornet bb.

Now, looking for any tighter bb for dark sound. I didn't verify yet.
A tighter bb make cornet sound darker, I have heard.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still haven't pulled the trigger on the Warburton 3S setup. In the mean time, after reading some of the recent posts about smaller diameter, I bought a couple of pic mps to try: Bach 7E and Schilke 10Ax. Cup-wise, they're very similar. But, the Bach responds much better for me and it produces better intonation above the staff.

As a side note, I recently acquired an Eb flugelhorn. Since it uses French/Coueson shank mouthpieces, I had an adapter made so I could use my cornet mouthpieces in it. The darker nature of the flugel sound coupled with the shallow 7E piece produces a soaring sound that isn't too shrill... it will be a perfect fit for my brass band playing.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, I like my DW Eb soprano cornet mouthpiece. It feels close to the regular cornet rim and cup, which is fine. I tried the high register and it sounds fine. I cost only $50. For something to be played once in a while, I think this cost enough. Otherwise I might try some of the much more expensive brands. No need here - not a specialist.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing a Schilke with a Blackburn leadpipe, I bounce between 2 pieces. A Curry 3P when I'm either playing more like a piccolo trumpet or even a lead trumpet with the brass band, or a 3DE for a more mellow cornet like tone.
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