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scatanas
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Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 298
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 Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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what had happened was that i found it odd that he sent me more $$ than i asked for and so, i googled "Cashier's check scam" and lots of stuff came up. I didn't get a chance to send him my horn right after i deposited the check to the bank and thankfully i ran across this article:
http://www.scamvictimsunited.com/counterfeit_cashier's_check.htm
So the next day i went to the bank and upon much closer verification, they identified the check as a fake. But the previous day i deposited it JUST fine and the "money" went into my account.
Please read the article! it's very beneficial.
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scatanas
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Joined: 03 Oct 2005
Posts: 298
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| Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, for some reason the LINK in my previous post doesn't work. You can COPY it and then PASTE it in your browser.
But just in case neither works, HERE IS HOW THE SCAM GOES:
(i COPIED this from the article)
You are selling an item over the Internet - it could be a used car or motorcycle, jewelry or even bred animals. You receive an email offer to purchase your item and the buyer says he'll send a bank cashier's check. Then you are told that for some reason the check was already made out to you for an amount larger than your asking price. The buyer asks you to please deposit the check, wait for it to clear, and then send him the difference -- "but only after the cashier's check clears, of course."
You are skeptical - but, sure enough, the bank cashier's check arrives by Fed Ex, it looks real, your bank accepts the check, and the bank assures you the funds are in fact available. So you wait the time the bank recommends to verify that the check is clear and then you wire the difference to your buyer in Nigeria and prepare to ship your item.
A week later your bank calls: "We're very sorry, but the cashier's check was counterfeit" -- a superb copy, but worthless. Your account is frozen. You must pay the bank back the entire amount of the cashier's check. You may even be considered a fraud suspect yourself.
Your "buyer" disappears.
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Martin Bohme Tumultus
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jazzothman
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Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 214
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:10 am Post subject: |
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[So the next day i went to the bank and upon much closer verification, they identified the check as a fake. But the previous day i deposited it JUST fine and the "money" went into my account.]
I was unlucky I went to my bank and make the cancellation but I don't understand how come the bank in London informed my bank that they can't do anything to stop the transaction the money went thru to the scammer. |
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Andy Del
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 2665
Location: sunny Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| supportlivejazz wrote: | The issue is simple. Without several days or weeks of membership and many posts in the Forums, we have no way to know who we are dealing with. There is no history. There is no proof that the seller was committed enough to participate in order to be able to sell... and that alone indicates a level of seriousness. So in order to do what you are suggesting there needs to be some evidence on which to make a sound and sensible decision.
By the way, I don't harp. I have an opinion which was formed by long term observation and many years of experience... and I express it when the subject comes up. Harping like whining is not in my repertoire. |
Taking it a bit personally? That doesn't seem to be the mark of one who observes for and has years of experience. Sorry if the word harp stings, it wasn't personally aimed but reflective of the collective thread.
What you do say (again) in your first paragraph is that a waiting period and number of posts required is a panacea for online scams in the marketplace. Nothing could be further from the truth. this sort of requirement is a specific, aimed solution that will not do anything to stop those who exaggerate, wrongly describe, try to act as middlemen buying low / selling high, or one who is a committed and methodical scammer. (they do exist, and one has been discussed here quite a few times)
My point, which you appear to disregard, is that relying on others to do the safeguarding isn't going to work. So, one MUST do their own homework. Pretty simple, but when one focuses on largely irrelevant things such as membership time, or post number, they lose sight of their own responsibility.
But hey, we all like to blame someone else, don't we?
cheers
Andy
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supportlivejazz
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 3757
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Andy Del wrote: | | supportlivejazz wrote: | The issue is simple. Without several days or weeks of membership and many posts in the Forums, we have no way to know who we are dealing with. There is no history. There is no proof that the seller was committed enough to participate in order to be able to sell... and that alone indicates a level of seriousness. So in order to do what you are suggesting there needs to be some evidence on which to make a sound and sensible decision.
By the way, I don't harp. I have an opinion which was formed by long term observation and many years of experience... and I express it when the subject comes up. Harping like whining is not in my repertoire. |
Taking it a bit personally? That doesn't seem to be the mark of one who observes for and has years of experience. Sorry if the word harp stings, it wasn't personally aimed but reflective of the collective thread.
What you do say (again) in your first paragraph is that a waiting period and number of posts required is a panacea for online scams in the marketplace. Nothing could be further from the truth. this sort of requirement is a specific, aimed solution that will not do anything to stop those who exaggerate, wrongly describe, try to act as middlemen buying low / selling high, or one who is a committed and methodical scammer. (they do exist, and one has been discussed here quite a few times)
My point, which you appear to disregard, is that relying on others to do the safeguarding isn't going to work. So, one MUST do their own homework. Pretty simple, but when one focuses on largely irrelevant things such as membership time, or post number, they lose sight of their own responsibility.
But hey, we all like to blame someone else, don't we?
cheers
Andy |
And you disregard my point. I am not asking anyone to protect me or help me avoid anything. I am saying that by extending the time of membership and increasing the number of posts it provides us with otherwise non-existent history and information which we can examine and upon which we can make a judgment. Five posts tells us zero about a member who has no history here. It's not that hard to understand. I'm not sure what there is about this or about you that makes it so hard for you to understand.
It's what I think and nothing you have posted has changed my mind. I don't need or want protection. I do want and need information. I never said that it would be a panacea ... you did. I do continue to maintain that a lengthy term of membership and a substantial number of posts would tell me a great deal about the person with whom I am dealing and would eliminate many of the hit and run scammers that are being discussed here.
We disagree. I'm OK with that.
One point no-one has brought up is that this thread does not belong in the Horns Forum. I'm done posting in it.
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Olds LA Special Model Cornet
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michaelbsc
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Joined: 03 Nov 2011
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| supportlivejazz wrote: | | Five posts tells us zero about a member who has no history here. |
I have to agree that five posts is quite low. I'm a new guy here, and I have next to no history. Frankly, I wouldn't buy anything from me on this site unless you knew me personally or we were at a meet somewhere that you could examine the goods.
I'm not sure what the bar should be. Maybe five is just fine from an administrative perspective, and then each of us makes a judgement call on their own. After all, the moderators cannot be the thought police for each of us. And while I don't know everyone here, I'd bet a hundred bucks that there is at least one person who isn't trustworthy that's been around a long time. So we each have to exercise some personal due diligence.
I think our naval officer is out of business, however. |
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RandyTX
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Joined: 25 Mar 2010
Posts: 5299
Location: Central Texas
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:46 am Post subject: |
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I think the "bar" is each person's own common sense. When I look through the marketplace, I first read the ad carefully. If it looks like it was authored via google translate, or a 3 year old, I ignore it, regardless of how nice the price might be.
If it has no pictures, or only a stock photo off of a vendor's website, again, I ignore it. If the photos seem to hint that one particular part of the horn is being hidden from view, that also makes me suspicious.
Then I look at the id of the person placing the ad. If it's one of the frequent posters, I feel much more comfortable right away. The downside to this of course, is that they usually have a better idea of what something will bring, so it's hard to bargain hunt with them.  Just reading a frequent poster's writing over months or years can tell you a lot (almost subliminally) about their thinking and perhaps even how likely they are to be completely forthcoming in describing their item for sale.
If I don't recognize them, I look at their posting history. I would *never* buy an instrument or anything else in the marketplace from somebody that does the forum "drive by" putting in 5 or 6 "me too" posts on 7 year old threads.
And this is a minor thing, but I instantly distrust any post that says "This is the greatest playing trumpet I have ever owned, but I have decided to sell it and keep some others instead". That always reeks of pure BS.
Changing the technical "bar" to make it harder to post ads initially doesn't really change any of the above for me.
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Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| RandyTX wrote: | I think the "bar" is each person's own common sense. When I look through the marketplace, I first read the ad carefully. If it looks like it was authored via google translate, or a 3 year old, I ignore it, regardless of how nice the price might be.
If it has no pictures, or only a stock photo off of a vendor's website, again, I ignore it. If the photos seem to hint that one particular part of the horn is being hidden from view, that also makes me suspicious.
Then I look at the id of the person placing the ad. If it's one of the frequent posters, I feel much more comfortable right away. The downside to this of course, is that they usually have a better idea of what something will bring, so it's hard to bargain hunt with them. Just reading a frequent poster's writing over months or years can tell you a lot (almost subliminally) about their thinking and perhaps even how likely they are to be completely forthcoming in describing their item for sale.
If I don't recognize them, I look at their posting history. I would *never* buy an instrument or anything else in the marketplace from somebody that does the forum "drive by" putting in 5 or 6 "me too" posts on 7 year old threads.
And this is a minor thing, but I instantly distrust any post that says "This is the greatest playing trumpet I have ever owned, but I have decided to sell it and keep some others instead". That always reeks of pure BS.
Changing the technical "bar" to make it harder to post ads initially doesn't really change any of the above for me. |
+1.
Like most anything else, there are no guarantees, common sense and intuitition have to be applied.
I would like to see the "five posts" rule increased though, at least that would make it a bit more time-consuming, and hopefully discouraging, for any potential scammer. So when we see maybe ten or fifteen posts similar to the guy selling his grandmother's horn recently, we could pretty much assume that he is here either just to use the marketplace, which is of course free, or is up to something dishonest.
Brad361 |
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John Mohan
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001
Posts: 9830
Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| RandyTX wrote: | How long do you have to reverse a paypal transaction, if you are the buyer, and think that perhaps the item you purchased has not, and perhaps will not be shipped?
(Really hoping this isn't the case, but starting to get suspicious...) |
You must file a complaint within 45 days of the original transaction. Sooner is better than later, because if the culprit has cleared out their paypal account, paypal will not be able to collect from them, and therefore will just "owe" you the refund (forever). |
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Brent
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Sep 2005
Posts: 1099
Location: St. Paul, MN
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:01 pm Post subject: Scam |
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I got the same guy inquiring about my Getzen 3051. I told him to go do something in particular to himself.
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Cadenza
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Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| trumpetherald wrote: | | Quote: | | Ahhh, that's it. I just couldn't figure out what they were getting out of it. They send you Paypal money. You Western Union part of that to their "local agent." And then they reverse their original Paypal payment. They never attempt to get the horn. They just got some of your money instead. |
Yup, looks that way. Taking advantage of PayPal's policies, looks like.
td |
Could either of you (trumpetherald, or loweredsixth whom trumpetherald quotes) kindly explain this a bit more -- like "reversing" a PayPal payment and so on?
This refers to earlier posts near the top of page 2 of this thread, for reference. The top post there quotes experience of Brad361.
I imagine others, too, can benefit from understanding this better. Thank you! |
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loweredsixth
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 1844
Location: Fresno, California, USA, North America, Earth, Solar System, Orion Arm, Milky Way Galaxy, Universe
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| Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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Essentially, Paypal should never be used unless the seller is shipping the item to e Paypal verified address. The seller needs to get the option of tracking the package online. When the buyer contacts Paypal and claims they never received the item, it is up to the seller to provide proof that the item was delivered. If the seller cannot provide that proof then Paypal will reverse the payment (i.e. take money OUT of your account and transfer it back to the buyer's account.)
Now, since these people are saying they want to pick the item up in person, they will be able to claim the item was never delivered and Paypal will have to reverse the transaction.
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Paul.Trumpet
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 21 Nov 2001
Posts: 510
Location: Oxfordshire
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:34 am Post subject: |
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You won't get any money back from Paypal if the item is delivered by secured delivery and its different from the advertised goods but the seller deletes or modifies their advert after the sale and makes excuses.
Thats why Ebay lock old adverts after sales complete. |
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trumpaholic
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Sep 2005
Posts: 1501
Location: Lindsay Ontario Canada
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:56 am Post subject: |
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I was scammed out of 500.00 by a TH member, Hot Deal1 Smoko, it took eBay a year to confirm the fraud, and then paypal would not go good for the money because it was after 45 days.........
This was a well documented scam, why is he still allowed to be a member of the trumpet herald?
Ebay returned my 100% feedback, but would not return my money.
I do not see any benefit for any number of posts, it is simply too easy to click onto a topic and put in 10 words of irrevelant verbiage, let the buyer/seller beware.
I try to be careful here, and was still lied to on a recent purchase of a 46 Martin, once again by a member of the trumpet herald, Dan Quigley!
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dcombust
New Member
Joined: 01 Feb 2012
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:25 pm Post subject: Pickup Safety |
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When I do any type of in-person pick-up, I meet at a police station lobby. Do this if you are buying or selling. Last thing I want is to be clubbed over the head and have my 46 Committee stolen...
Also, as soon as Western Union is mentioned...run.
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Cadenza
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Joined: 12 Jan 2009
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | | RandyTX wrote: | How long do you have to reverse a paypal transaction, if you are the buyer, and think that perhaps the item you purchased has not, and perhaps will not be shipped?
(Really hoping this isn't the case, but starting to get suspicious...) |
You must file a complaint within 45 days of the original transaction. Sooner is better than later, because if the culprit has cleared out their paypal account, paypal will not be able to collect from them, and therefore will just "owe" you the refund (forever). |
Does this PayPal protection apply to any transactions through PayPal or only to eBay transactions done through PayPal? Thanks! |
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richardwy
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 4308
Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Here's an idea . . .
So, let's pretend richardwy has a horn in the Marketplace.
And a Mr.TH wants to buy it. But he doesn't know me.
Mr.TH posts a thread: richardwy is he trustworthy?
Simple.
I mean that is what every buyer and seller want to know. Oh, the seller can do the same thing. In the same thread, I could ask, is Mr.TH trustworthy?
Or any lingo along those lines. Or we could just PM each other out the wazoo.
Yes, I know, such a public question borders on bad taste . . . it assumes humans are capable of deceit. Sort of the elephant in the room.
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MichaelM2
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Joined: 09 Mar 2007
Posts: 264
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Richard,
That will work up to the point where you see six posters with different ids each with 1 posting saying the seller is wonderful. Being careful goes a long way. If you have ANY reservations about a deal or seller it's time to move on.
Mike |
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Norman
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Joined: 04 Mar 2007
Posts: 383
Location: Milan, Italy
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: |
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The scam has appeared in Italy too, translated in Italian.
The email includes a link to a fake Paypal site, paypal.com.it. If you log in there, the guy hijacks your paypal account and you're screwed.
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richardwy
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Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 4308
Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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Mike, was thinking that we'd hear from folks we know and trust vouching for someone.
Also, maybe best to buy from someone you know. I know. Not possible at times.
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