Bach 5MV or 5SV

[Pat]

I have a son just starting high school who uses a small lettered Bach 5C. This is his first year in marching band but he plays relatively well so they put him on first part. There are alot of high notes so I am thinking of buying him a mouthpiece that will give him a little help, although I don't want anything with a tight backbore that may cause him to develop bad habits with his breath support. I noticed in the Bach catalog the 5MV and 5SV. These are supposed to be V-shaped cup mouthpieces, but with a larger throat and backbore. (I guess kind of like the 7E) These might be good possibilities since the rim should be similar to the 5C he is now using. Anyone had any experience with either of these mouthpieces? Thanks for the feedback.

[pfrank]

I tried both last week, and I'm someone who always openes mps to a 25 or 26 throat (just never 27) and I use slightly larger back bores sometimes too, certainly on cornets. The 5SV is very similar in shape to the Warburton 4 or 5 SV cup (according to the Kanstul comparitor).

I wound up getting a Curry 5Z and had that opened to a full 26 throat (vs the original which is in between 26 and 27). That Curry 5Z is amazing! So easy and "free blowing" too. I prefer the Warburton rim though because it's a little flatter which helps give support in the high register, and will be getting a Warburton 5SV with a 6 or 7 backbore as well.

When I played these Bach 5SV and MV, there was allot of air sound present, which is to me an indication of too big of a back bore and/or throat. So the 5SV seems mismatched to me (playing the way I do). The 5MV seemed to be a better fit, but it's not a lead piece, way too much work to get a sizzle on.
I say "playing the way I do" because I'm sure a person could get used to the 5SV by subtly adjusting the air streem (but don't think about it, just model the sound you want).

While it's commendable to not want a young person to get used relying on a "cheeter" mouthpiece, the simple fact is the a shallow mp requires the RIGHT backbore, and that might be a bit tighter than standard.
Once a young player is developed enough to work professionally, (or in a Killer HS big band) and needs to have those notes above high C, they can be trusted to use a mp that is for lead work.
The pro studio musicians do because they have to rely on the high register being there no matter what. And sometimes you need the high frequencies that a lead piece provides. Small isn't bad, particularly when high notes require a smaller apeture in the lips! Smaller equals higher by the laws of physics!

[AverageJoe]

I bought a 5MV sight-unseen a number of years ago. I don't know if they are still made the same way, but it was NOT a more efficient mpce than a 5C. In fact, it looks like a 5C that somebody modified (poorly) by funneling out the bottom of the cup and opening the throat. Definitely NOT an improvement. The increased cup volume and opened up throat produced bad intonation, diffused sound, and MUCH more work to play. I cannot speak for the 5SV.

Since this is for marching band, the goal is to make it easier. I would recommend trying out the Yamaha 14A4a or 14B4. The rims on both of these are very close in feel to a 5C, but they are both more efficient. In terms of cup volume and backbore, the sizes, from largest to smallest, are in this order:

Bach 5C > Yamaha 14B4 > Yamaha 14A4a

These should allow your son to get better results for less effort, if the feel works for him. Both of these are pretty easy to obtain from a reputable music store, and they are in the $35-$45 range. If you have to special order a Bach 5MV or 5SV, it could take months, taking you to the end of marching season. Yamaha will be able to get these out in a week if your local store doesn't already have them in stock.

If you don't mind spending a little more money, I recommend checking into the Warburton line, if there is a dealer in your area. You can visit them online at

http://www.warburton-usa.com

These are modular mouthpieces, meaning that you can try a variety of rim/cup shapes and match them to different backbores (allowing you to fine-tune your selection). I think they run in the $80-$90 range, but somebody correct me if I am wrong (haven't shopped Warburton in years). If you contact them directly, they are very helpful.

Good Luck,

Paul Poovey

[ This Message was edited by: AverageJoe on 2003-08-20 10:30 ]

[_dcstep]

I second the Yamaha 14B4 recommendation. This is a great all around piece.
_________________
Schilke '60 B1 -- 229 Bach-C/19-350 Blackburn -- Lawler TL Cornet -- Conn V1 Flugel -- Stomvi Master Bb/A/G picc -- GR mpcs
[url=http://www.pitpops.com] The PitPops[/url]
Rocky Mountain Trumpet Fest

[pfrank]

Unlike Bach, Yamaha, Curry, Stork and Laskey, Warburton is keeping up with the market prescident of GR and Monet, and their stuff is much desired so they won't loose market share. The tops are now $75 and the bb $50. But that's my limit for a small hunk of silver coated brass!

[ This Message was edited by: pfrank on 2003-08-20 14:35 ]

[_dcstep]

[pfrank]

What did you not understand? "Market share" is the percent of consumers who use your product. "Prescident" means: what came before. As in "setting a prescident". Cat Anderson set a prescident for high note playing. Monet set a prescident for putting a high price on mouthpieces.
I'm a BAD speller, but I try...



[ This Message was edited by: pfrank on 2003-08-20 14:35 ]

[DaveH]

Let me help out here a little - the word you want is "precedent."

[Pat]

Thanks for the replies. It was my thinking that the v-shaped cup (as well as the shallowness) of the 5SV might help with the high notes (and projection for my son's Bach 37)

I hadn't considered the Schilkes because I remember Phyllis Stork describing the the cups as "buckety, but I will certainly look into the14B. (but probably not the 14A4a. At this point I don't think that tight back bore is good for him).

To PFrank: I have tried a Curry 3 ZM. Are the "Z" versions basically the same except a little shallower? I take it that in comparison to the Curry 5Z the v-shape of the Bach 5SV didn't seem to be of any extra help with the high noties. (--I know from your contributions to TH that you've used Storks and are aware of how their more V-shaped cups affect sound an playability)

Thanks

[pfrank]

Ha!, Pat. I haven't tried the ZM, (Osman didn't have one in the regular shank size) but I do have a DE comming...I know a classical trumpet player who uses the ZM, so it's deep enough... The Z SEEMS to be a more shallow bowel shape (or bucket) but what's important is that the initial undercut keeps you from falling in and the contour of the 2nd cup (which is a Very shallow V) gives a bright tone. Nowadays it seems that Schilke has a softer bite, which for me inhibits buzz. For a few years I played a 15B, and in conversation Mark Curry says that is an excellent mp. Probably the 15B was big enough so that I could use the soft bite, now that I'm using smaller pieces the lip tissue in use must be free of constraint.
BTW, a good warmup is essential for me to make the 5Z sound warm and full bodied. Before warmup (which I do on a Warburton 4D26 7bb25) it sounds pinched. Any mp takes some getting used too.

Ahh, Phyllis Stork. I always apreciate a person who is direct and doesn't equivocate...

BTW, Claude Gordon had a part in designing the Bach 5V series, hence the bigger backbore etc., he could move some air! He got it right with Benge though, as the CG3 and Personal don't seem out of wack with respect to resistance. What a tough guy he was, those rims are narrow!

[ This Message was edited by: pfrank on 2003-08-20 15:48 ]

[jamesfrmphilly]

the V cup will NOT aid the high register
i play a 5V and i like it but i disagree with your thinking
i think high register comes from study and practice, i prefer Claude Gordon's books
i would not put a kid in a position where they are pressured to produce high notes
_________________
1946 Martin Committee, Bach 5V

[Pat]

James: I don't think there is any question that practice would be a better alternative to a shallow mouthpiece. Unfortunately, my son's interests lie elsewhere. He has an older sister who is studying to be a professional flutist and he wants no part of that. He probably has as much talent, a better ear, but zero interest. I thought I would at least make his marching band experience easier.

Theoretically, at least according to the Storks, the shallow V cup should facilitate the air getting to hole faster resulting in easier high notes and a brighter tone. I know Maynard uses a V cup. My question was whether anyone found this true of the 5V's. Thanks for your input.

[pfrank]

I got the Curry 5DE yesterday and used it in rehearsal last night. It's very good too...little bit bigger second cup V than the Z. If mouthpieces were named like pre-sets on a synth, I'd call the Z, "commercial trumpet" and the DE, "Broadway trumpet". The sound is wider with more low frequencies than the Z and the bite seems a little sharper. Almost Harry James like in tone...would be a good marching band mp, but the Z does take less effort to play high on.

I've found that Phyllis is correct about shallow V cups, in a bowel, the air streem pools more, and the sound is rounder. A shallow V does help air speed and is more "lazer-like" in sound. That is untill the V gets to a certain depth/angle of decent to the throat when the sound becomes darker, rolled off high end frequencies. Like the Wick cornet mps... That's partly why I've liked the Stork C+ (which have more of an initial undercut before the V) and B cups for a more rounded tone. I think a fatter rim (than Stork) is better for marching...there's allot of minor bumping....

[jamesfrmphilly]

there's more to it than the cup
there's the throat and the backbore and the rim
i have Stork mpcs and i prefer the Bach 5V which was designed by Claude Gordon, i was told
it has a #20 throat and a deep V and a 25 backbore
this gives a warm dark sound like a cornet

_________________
used, beat up MAX trumpet, Bach 5V mpc.

[ This Message was edited by: jamesfrmphilly on 2003-08-22 16:18 ]

[PJN]

Hey Pat,

I am a comeback player 2.5 yrs into it. I used a bach 5C in High school for everything, I was able to blow high G's with that no problem. As I grew into Senior year, I got hold of a Bob Reeves Hollywood 24 692 3. I have no idea what the numbers mean, but I played Send in the Clowns for a feature, and that plays to a high Bb. My father used to warn me not to get a hernia. Lol.

Now, Both of those seem a little small for me, and I have been using a Yamaha 14B4. , seems comfy, and definitely a bit roomier. No, I dont have that Bb any more but I am working on it. I can play up to an F most any day.

Good luck in your search.
_________________
The most important factor in developing the high register is desire, the patience to wait, and the necessary time to acquire it.
Bud Brisbois

[BrassClass]

PJN,

Sure that Reeves piece wasn't a 42 692-3? If it is, it's a great piece. 42=rim diameter 692=backbore 3=shank.

[PJN]

Brassclass,

No, I double-checked, It is 24 692 3. Thanks for the info on the numbering system. I really have not gotten into the whole mouthpiece safari thing. I probably need to know a bit more than I do however.

This really is a comfy piece, but now you have me curious about getting a 42 rim on this thing.......and so it begins.....
_________________
The most important factor in developing the high register is desire, the patience to wait, and the necessary time to acquire it.
Bud Brisbois

[PJN]

Funny thing though you guys, I tried a 5SV at my lesson yesterday, my teacher is trying one out... it felt pretty wierd to me. I think I have always played on a rounded shape, so it just felt really different.

FWIW
_________________
The most important factor in developing the high register is desire, the patience to wait, and the necessary time to acquire it.
Bud Brisbois

[marktrumpet]

I have both the 5MV and 5SV and I don't like either one of them. I think you can find something better for probably around the same price.

[jamesfrmphilly]

better maybe, same price, i don't think so!
_________________
1946 Martin Committee, Bach 5V