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Easy way to learn Bebop?


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EdMann
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

EdMann wrote:
sorry, rigorous and demanding are two words that don't come up in jazz for me. Fun and exciting, interesting and emotional. More often, whoops and daisy...

ed


Call me the agreeable sort, but I guess I either don't know how much rigor I've put in, or like cooking and eating, I just like it. Either way, if I had a prof for jazz studies that said that, I'd run for the orchestra pit. What a set up. Like all the greats have said, "it's fun."
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thadjones1213
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No that is great! Taste buds = Ears, they are the key ingredient to that satisfaction, development of pallet, nuance, texture. The more you taste the more you know what you really like, and the more aspects you can appreciate and possibly duplicate in a very complex pallet meal/food/sauce.

Taste buds inform how you go forward.
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PH
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jazz equals serious fun.

A paradox, not a contradiction.

Nonetheless, bebop is probably the most rigorous style of jazz. That's why it makes a great pedagogical tool, regardless of what styles you end up playing. It is kind of like baroque music in classical music study in that respect.
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TrentAustin
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PH wrote:
Jazz equals serious fun.

A paradox, not a contradiction.

Nonetheless, bebop is probably the most rigorous style of jazz. That's why it makes a great pedagogical tool, regardless of what styles you end up playing. It is kind of like baroque music in classical music study in that respect.


Absolutely PAT! To quote Lee Konitz

"Before you play way out you need to play way in first!"

Bebop is the foundational concrete of modern jazz IMO.

Baroque/Bebop... first cousins!
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Microblitz
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm study baroque I'm familiar with that style of music.

The books I have are
William bays complete jazz
12&3 of Dave bakers how to play Bebop.
Eric Bolvin's modern jazz trumpet method.

I'm struggling with the bebop books, since they are all disembodied snippets of bebop. At this stage I think I need a real I depth book or a damm good tutor or possibly both.

I do listen to Charlie and Dizzy, but I find it difficult to tune in on it. What they do is so far out there that I can't follow it line by line. I hear what theyare doing but I don't HEAR what they are doing. Does that make any sense?
I mean I can HEAR what Satchmo does and understand it and can replicate it, but Bebop is like an alien language and I don't have a Rosetta stone.
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thadjones1213
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally understand what you are saying. And I want to first encourage you to not give up, keep digging in.

The Baker bebop books are great. What they are showing you are common uses and the function of supporting chord tones. I was introduced to those books before the Ligon book.

The second book which deals mainly with ii V language (lick after lick of D-7 to G7).

Most of those ideas start on the Root, 3rd, or 5th of the D minor chord and gravitate toward the 7th that resolves to the 3rd of G7(B) and descends the bebop scale and gravitates toward E which is the 3rd of C major (resolution).

This is the language. This is your rosettas stone.

You need to pick a tune or blues in a key you feel comfortable. Blue Mitchell's "Blues Theme" a rhythm change, or "Blue Soul" or "Bluesville" both blues.

Easy Heads, changes are pretty standard. Listen to those tunes a lot over and over and over.

Do you have Aebersolds or rhythm tracks to practice over? If not play over the rhythm section and solos on the recording of these tunes.

Try to play what Blue is playing. Play with him, memorize by ear what he is playing.

After you can do this, then maybe write the licks or sounds you really like out over the chords that they occur over. Now you can see what he is doing.

Dizzy is hard to hear for a while. I would listen to someone that plays medium swing tempos for a while until you make some progress.

Blue Mitchell, medium tempo Clifford: Joy Spring, Jordu, late Chet (steeplechase albums), Quiet Kenny, Lee Morgan Ceora.

Better to work on one tune all day then 20 tunes. It takes that kind of time for you to marinate in the context of those changes. Also once you can do something on one tune a lot of things transfer to other tunes. Be patient and persistent.

All the best
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Microblitz
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Most of those ideas start on the Root, 3rd, or 5th of the D minor chord and gravitate toward the 7th that resolves to the 3rd of G7(B) and descends the bebop scale and gravitates toward E which is the 3rd of C major (resolution). "

A
F D
Dm to B which is B
G G
E
C
That makes more sense to me.
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Ed Kennedy
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:13 am    Post subject: Be Bop Reply with quote

Absolutely PAT! To quote Lee Konitz

"Before you play way out you need to play way in first!"

Joe Daley said the same thing. "Inside before outside."
Amusing anecdote:
In the early 70's Michael Brecker was in town (Chicago) and called up Joe for a lesson. He played for Joe and Joe told Michael that he couldn't teach him anything except ........ that he should explore playing "outside." But then, that was Michael Brecker.
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intrepidpooch
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrentAustin wrote:
Start with Bird. Learn from the best!
-T

This is the gospel truth here. Dizzy might have been the patron saint of bebop but in his own words, Bird had the phrasing. My favorite bebop-era trumpeters, Fats Navarro, Kenny Dorham, and Clifford Brown, sound to me to be coming more out of Bird than Dizzy at least in terms of language and the way they constructed and phrased their lines through the harmony. My favorite Bird solos are from live recordings like Jazz At Massey Hall, The Washington Concerts, Live at Cafe Society, Complete Rockland Palace Concerts, and also the Bird With Strings studio recordings are highly accesible solos to start with. Don't just buy the Bb Omnibook and try to read your way through them, first of all that thing is loaded with clams and wrong notes/rhythms. You've gotta live with a solo for a while just listening then singing along before you even think of trying to transcribe anything, so pick one that you really love. And make sure you know & understand the changes and can play them on the piano. You've got to understand how the lines and licks you're learning relate to the harmony, otherwise you've just got an etude to play. And lastly, to quote Bill Evans, "practice the minimum," meaning practice the minimum amount of material to attain mastery. Remember, the purpose to transcription is to gain new language and ideas and assimilate them to our own personal vocabulary. You would be better served by learning the pants off of just one ii-V-I lick from a Bird solo and playing it in all 12 keys instead of learning the entire solo but never learning how the lines relate to the changes, etc. In fact a lot of great players never learned an entire solo or wrote things down, instead they picked their favorite licks from their favorite solos and focused their shed on just that (Herbie Hancock is one that comes to mind). This might be really difficult at first but the more solos/licks of a particular player you learn the easier it becomes. After years of doing this you'll actually get to the point where you can actually transcribe a line you hear in your head without your instrument--that's when you know you're really getting inside of a player's linear approach in a deep way. Best of luck to you and enjoy the ride!
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: way Reply with quote

Listen to the great be-bop musicians, as well as those who are crossover from swing to be-bop..like Harry Edison, Coleman Hawkins, Ben Webster, Nat Cole, Billie Holiday, Lester Young, Count Basie's band...many more..be-bopers like Bird, Bud Powell, Fats, Early Miles, K.D.especially, early Coltrane..all to absorb holistically..the feeling and the flow, and get used to the harmony. Listen to the blues played by be-boppers..and begin transcribing, a chorus at a time, the easiest and most clear chorus's that speak to your need..what you need to know how to play. Sonny Stitt, Sonny Clarke, early Donald Bird spell out the alphabet of be-bop in an accessible way. Take piano lessons, so you can spell out a 2-5 with root-7 in the left hand and practice and absorb the best resolving lines and how they turn..without the horn in your face. Commit them to memory, sing them, and transpose them, mentally, into as many keys as possible. Then write them down, and play them on the horn. Go out and play at sessions, and learn to resolve the 2-5's on the blues. Learn what the b9, #9, #11, and 13 implies. Learn how to substitute the b5 imposed over the simple 2-5's you learned before, mentally, away from the horn. Then on the horn, and hear the notes. The more piano, the more ear and mental work and control, the better. Pick your stylist's..and emulate them a little..Freddie...Lee..early Miles..Kd..Stan Getz even..
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Kujo20
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrentAustin wrote:
Start with Bird. Learn from the best!
-T


Agreed! I actually learned Bebop from my Charlie Parker Bb Omnibook. All I did was go piece by piece. Take them slow to begin with, get the fingers moving, add the soul....and go from there!

Kujo
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: oh.. Reply with quote

Oh, I forgot..steer clear of the play along books until later..until you need to look back, and define what it is you now can hear and duplicate(sing) and transpose and execute on the horn.
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Microblitz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kujo20 wrote:
TrentAustin wrote:
Start with Bird. Learn from the best!
-T


Agreed! I actually learned Bebop from my Charlie Parker Bb Omnibook. All I did was go piece by piece. Take them slow to begin with, get the fingers moving, add the soul....and go from there!

Kujo


I just ordered Charlie Parker Bb Omnibook from Amazon. I'll take a look at that. Thanks for the heads up on that.

Who's good at teaching this stuff over Skype that charges say $50 an hour a week? Who do the players recommend? I don't need a celebrity mega-expert though that would be nice if they want to take me under their wing.

For instance ... (I used to pay $40 (£25) an hour for a local school teacher).

$50 is a bit more than I (really want to... I'd prefer $40) pay (I'm going to need the wifes permission for that sheesh!) in England for a person to person lesson as I have found out the nearest "real" jazz teacher is over 300 miles away in London.

It's not like it's a short term thing I'm getting into, I spent a year and a half with my school teacher before he took a job with a local grammer school and moved on leaving me highand dry. He was just getting my diaphram working and cleaning up my tone after the 30 year break.

So if I'm going to get lessons via Skype, I might as well get them from the location where it was invented right? (I don't wanna play Euro-Jazz).

The ones I have found locally are classical teachers who put "Jazz" on their resume to sound 'cool' and impress but when you actually work with them they think jazz comes from a fake book.
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falado
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Give Rich Willey a call, PM, or e-mail. I had a lesson with him last year, was all day and was worth it. He gave me some insight and a lot of material to work on. He's a great guy too.
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Drklobz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a few spots in my Skype studio open if you're interested. You can check out my website, send me a PM or email through my website for more information.
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Microblitz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 6:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drklobz wrote:
I have a few spots in my Skype studio open if you're interested. You can check out my website, send me a PM or email through my website for more information.


I'll check it it and the other suggestion and perhaps we will chat.
I didn't read the board rules (Who does?) but my guess is that soliciting is on the borderline, either that or I'm going to have to pay the jazz pimp

By the way I have read every reply (more than once) and I'm pretty impressed with the knowlege that is floating around on here. You guys have been real nice to me. It almost makes up for being on a Jazz free wet rock in the Atlantic ocean full of classical squares who insist on teaching me Italian when I'm s'posed to be jammin'.

Thank you.
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intrepidpooch
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: oh.. Reply with quote

mcgovnor wrote:
Oh, I forgot..steer clear of the play along books until later..until you need to look back, and define what it is you now can hear and duplicate(sing) and transpose and execute on the horn.

Listen to Mike, he's telling the truth. Among many other things, he played the solo chair in Buddy Rich's band and has TONS of real-world experience so it's safe to way the guy knows what he's talking about! You'd be much better served by taking that $20 you were going to spend on that Omnibook and buy a couple classic albums. The whole goal here isn't just memorizing lines from a book, the idea is that you start to hear the language inside your head and play what you hear--that's what ALL the greats did in all eras of jazz. You can always tell when someone is playing what they truly hear and when someone is just forcing licks they memorized in a contrived manner. The key is to immerse yourself in this music in all of your spare time, always having the stereo on and listening & singing along with solos in your car on your way to work or the grocery store, etc. There's no other way and like I said before, that Bb version of the Omnibook is chocked full of transposition errors and clams galore. I assigned one of my alto sax students the "K.C. Blues" solo and there were half a dozen blatant mistakes--I was pretty surprised to say the least! The Eb version is much better but even that has errors in it--again, the best bet is learn the solos by ear by yourself! Use the Amazing Slow Downer if you need to but learn them BY EAR!
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Microblitz
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 8:14 am    Post subject: Re: oh.. Reply with quote

Quote:
"You'd be much better served by taking that $20 you were going to spend on that Omnibook..."


Its already bought.
Quote:
"... and buy a couple classic albums."


I have lots of classic albums, my father was a beatnik and a big Miles fan.

Quote:
"The whole goal here isn't just memorizing lines from a book, the idea is that you start to hear the language inside your head and play what you hear--that's what ALL the greats did in all eras of jazz. "


I do, I hear Satchmo not Dizzy Gillespie. I wanna hear Dizzy but he just isn't talking the same language.

Quote:
"You can always tell when someone is playing what they truly hear and when someone is just forcing licks they memorized in a contrived manner."


I hear that. Youtube is full of it. But even so it would be nice to be able to switch from creative mode to mechanical (formulaic) mode and back.

Quote:
"The key is to immerse yourself in this music in all of your spare time, always having the stereo on and listening & singing along with solos in your car on your way to work or the grocery store, etc."


I'm the IT guy for my company. I get to listen to Jazz all day long when I'm at my desk.

Quote:
"There's no other way and like I said before, that Bb version of the Omnibook is chocked full of transposition errors and clams galore."


Not as many clams as I can make in 8 bars I betcha!

Quote:
"... the best bet is learn the solos by ear by yourself! Use the Amazing Slow Downer if you need to but learn them BY EAR!

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crzytptman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:46 am    Post subject: Re: oh.. Reply with quote

intrepidpooch wrote:
mcgovnor wrote:
Oh, I forgot..steer clear of the play along books until later..until you need to look back, and define what it is you now can hear and duplicate(sing) and transpose and execute on the horn.

Listen to Mike, he's telling the truth. Among many other things, he played the solo chair in Buddy Rich's band and has TONS of real-world experience so it's safe to way the guy knows what he's talking about!

Absolutely, Mike is the man.

You'd be much better served by taking that $20 you were going to spend on that Omnibook and buy a couple classic albums. The whole goal here isn't just memorizing lines from a book, the idea is that you start to hear the language inside your head and play what you hear--that's what ALL the greats did in all eras of jazz. You can always tell when someone is playing what they truly hear and when someone is just forcing licks they memorized in a contrived manner. The key is to immerse yourself in this music in all of your spare time, always having the stereo on and listening & singing along with solos in your car on your way to work or the grocery store, etc. There's no other way and like I said before, that Bb version of the Omnibook is chocked full of transposition errors and clams galore. I assigned one of my alto sax students the "K.C. Blues" solo and there were half a dozen blatant mistakes--I was pretty surprised to say the least! The Eb version is much better but even that has errors in it--again, the best bet is learn the solos by ear by yourself! Use the Amazing Slow Downer if you need to but learn them BY EAR!

I don't think playing through the Omnibook is a waste of time at all. Even with mistakes, you are learning how to flow with it. I like playing through it, but I've never consciously worked on memorizing licks. Just get in there and read it down. I like the Eb book as well for other keys, and higher range. It's like doing Clarke studies - you don't memorize every note of every exercise, you apply the model to the key. I played Clarke studies for a couple of years before I ever owned the book. When I was at the music store, I would peek and see what the next model was, then go home and play it. I do own the book now, and I still play at least 2 studies a day, but one of my students has had my book for 6 months. Clarke studies and a well cultivated imagination will take you far . . .
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Microblitz wrote:
[
By the way I have read every reply (more than once) and I'm pretty impressed with the knowlege that is floating around on here. You guys have been real nice to me. It almost makes up for being on a Jazz free wet rock in the Atlantic ocean full of classical squares who insist on teaching me Italian when I'm s'posed to be jammin'.

Thank you.


Welcome to TH!
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