Flutter Tonguing Benefits - 2nd Opinion Please

[Foiler]

Perhaps this question would be better suited for the Fundamentals forum, but I would like to hear from instructors/players with more experience than me. I am a comeback player who has played off and on the last 30 years. I decided to start formal trumpet lessons (to create good playing habits) in January of this year.

I had my 4th private trumpet lesson last night. My instructor has noticed since the first practice that my tones at and above the fourth space "E" in the staff begin sounding thin or pinched. No arguments there, as I can hear and feel it too. The oral cavity back-pressure increases quite a bit as I ascend from the "E" and above. My current range is from pedal tones to a B (barely) above the staff.

My instructor also observed that my throat appears to be tensing up/expanding outward correspondingly with the higher notes. He told me early on that he believes that the base of my tongue is constricting the airflow as I ascend up in the staff.

His remedy for relaxing the base of my tongue has been to prescribe flutter-tonguing for the past three lessons. Keep in mind, I couldn't even roll my "R"'s when he first prescribed this. Well, I learned to roll my "R"'s in a couple of days, and I have since learned to flutter my tongue while playing about a slow scale from Low-C up to a third line "C".

However, other than generating a ton of spit, I just don't see any benefits from these flutter tonguing exercises. I do not yet hear or feel any differences as a result of these exercises, other than a very tingly and numb tongue-tip.

Do any of you teach (or have you been taught) flutter tonguing as a means for opening up the airways/relaxing the base of the tongue?

Thanks,
Dale in MI

[jpetrocelli]

I have never used it as an exercise for students to relax, however, it is impossible to flutter tongue with a tense tongue.

I'd suggest sticking with your teacher for a while and do exactly what he/she says. If you don't trust him, get a new teacher. If you keep second guessing, you won't get any better.

Again though, if you don't trust them, fire them and get a new teacher.
_________________
Joe Petrocelli

[amuller]

Allan Dean (trumpet professor at Yale, extraordinary musician and performer) advocates flutter tonguing in his lessons. I have had several friends who studied with him mention it and I am sure there are current and/or former students of his on TH that would be able to talk about the reasons and the benefits.

Also, David Hickman would know, as he is about the most well-versed trumpet teacher there is today...

A

[Blake]

How exactly does one go about learning how to flutter tongue? I can't do it and have tried practicing for a while.

[trpt.hick]

Not everyone can flutter-tongue. If you can, flutter while working up chromatically in 8th notes at "mf" dynamics. This can help prevent the back of the tongue from arching too high and choking off the airstream in the throat/larynx.

If you can't flutter (or even if you can) keep the front of the tongue very low in the front of the mouth while sustaining notes, like saying "ahhh" in an operatic voice. The low front tongue position helps keep the back of the tongue from arching too high. This method is typically used in symphonic (orchestral) style playing because it creates a nice depth of tone. . . very full and rich. However, it will only get you up to a high E or F (maybe a little higher for some) above high C. Higher that this, the front of the tongue should move up to the base of the lower teeth, push forward (sort of a tongue curl against the back of the lower teeth), and allow the airstream to become very fast and high right at the teeth/lips. (Callet's TCE method begins here and goes nicely higher by pushing the front of the tongue even more forward into and up against the lower lip.)

The front tongue curl allows the back of the tongue to drop quite a bit, keeping the throat open. This removes the excessive tension from the neck muscles/straps.

So, from low notes to high notes, the overall motion of tongue arch (when using an "open" embouchure) is to allow the back of the tongue to come up until the throat begins to feel choked, then go to the front tongue curl. It is like a large ocean wave coming into show, cresting as it reaches the shoreline.

I hope this helps.

Dave Hickman

[Foiler]

[trpt.hick]

Only down when sustaining notes.

[rockford]

This flutter tonguing technique has been a huge help teaching students that are struggling with tone production and in my own playing when I start to close off when getting tired. It seems to fix a lot of problems automatically with a simple concept. I've been using it since I attended one of your clinics last year. Thanks Dave!
_________________
Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.

[Biber]

It has always been my impression that flutter tonguing is helpful in promoting more open and efficient air flow.

B

[Nick Mondello]

I recently came across this thread and realized, surprisingly, that I can no longer flutter tongue while playing the horn. Since fluttering is not a commonly required demand for me, I never practiced it, using it where required. At one time, I could easily flutter at great length across the range of the horn. And, yes, my range was certainly better than it is now.

So, I started rolling my "RRRRRRs" again off the horn, then doing some lip buzzing whicle fluttering.

As of yet I still cannot get a decent, longer flutter on the mouthpiece or the horn. HOWEVER, I do now realize that my attacks - just from this off horn practice - are definitely more focused. Perhaps the tongue base and muscular support is loosening up due to the fluttering?

Dr. Hickman, if you or anyone has any suggestions here, I'd appreciate it.

Why off horn OK and on horn not as regards fluttering?

Thanks!!!!!

[trpt.hick]

Could it be because you anchor-tongue (slightly pressing the front of the tongue against the lower front teeth) when playing the horn? If so, fluttering will not be easy.

There is nothing wrong with anchor, or dorsal, tonguing. If you like your attacks and speed of articulation, don't worry about the flutter. If you DON'T like your attacks and speed when anchor-tonguing, try experimenting with tip-tonguing, which feels exactly like flutter-tonguing with the tip of the tongue. Trumpeters play better with one or the other.

DH

[Nick Mondello]

Dr. Hickman:

Thanks for the response!

No. I do not anchor tongue. I HAVE had two rear teeth extracted, though, now that we discuss this. Could that be it?

My "guess" is that it's probably WAY too much rear tongue tension plus the "acoustics" lost by having the teeth missing.

I'll work on it and let you know. Thanks!!!!

Best,
Nick

[vivace]

A few weeks ago we had a clinician come to my college to work with us trumpeters using a lot of stamp method stuff. He is a former student of stamp, Arto Hoornwig. In a lot of the exercises he would have us flutter them. Helped to get the air going and to loosen the tongue.

[jpellett]

[bulos]