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zachman727
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 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Mcgovnor,
If "99 out of 100 will have playing issues" by playing in the red, then 1 out of 100 would be able to play in the red. Is it completely impossible that those players would have "playing issues" by not playing in the red? |
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 4:56 am Post subject: Re: can't |
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| mcgovnor wrote: | | Having taught 100 if not thousands, and corrected many, suffered through in the red playing, and with full knowledge exceptions, however few, are the only rule, and knowing there are some who have SO much red playing would be impossible otherwise and their physique compensates, |
Please understand that placing the mouthpiece directly on the red is not something that I am recommending for all players, or even most. I'm just proposing that this placement is not necessarily something to reject a priori.
| Quote: | | I'm sure..there is NO way to know, during the course of a playing day, by looking through a visualizer or transparent mp, if the inner edge ends in or just above the red. |
It's actually very easy to see exactly how much rim contacts the vermillion using a transparent mouthpiece. You can see it pretty clearly.
| Quote: | | The MP moves all day. |
It's not uncommon to find players who place the mouthpiece in different spots on their lips for different ranges (e.g., moving the placement up or down for high range/low range, etc.). I tend to see a more consistent placement with the more experienced players, for what that's worth. Personally, I strive to keep the placement consistent throughout my whole range and this is what I teach my students to do as well.
| Quote: | | And there are no medical studies done on this, available. |
While I wouldn't go quite as far as you to say there are *no* medical studies, I've done a fairly extensive look through the literature and not found anything myself. This only means that I couldn't find anything, not that there hasn't been anything done.
However, there is a fair amount of medical literature (and some musical) that looks at lip damage from brass playing. I would think that the fact that this doesn't notice "corns" on the vermillion developed from brass playing would support the hypothesis that the red of the lips are adaptable enough to support rim contact, not something to be avoided.
For me, one of the most compelling arguments against your hypothesis is that there is always some rim contact on of the vermilion. If this was inherently damaging or develops "corns" on the lips, why do we not notice this on the sides of the lips, where the rim is always in contact with the red?
| Quote: | | Playing is the test, and the indents tell the story. 99 out of 100 will have playing issues they would not have, if they played in the white. |
Have you actually collected data on this and run a valid statistical analysis or are you just offering personal impressions? Remember that we are all prone to confirmation bias and I'm skeptical of my own personal impressions, let alone someone else's.
| Quote: | | The brass world has known this, for 100's of years. |
An argument from antiquity. Just because an idea has been around for a long time doesn't make it correct. Remember, the brass world has at one time felt that smiling to ascend was necessary and proper.
| royjohn wrote: | | A couple of clarifications . . . Those who play in the red are probably far from a majority . . . I wonder, Dave, from those you've examined, what percentage play in the red? |
I haven't run formal stats on this topic. The vast majority of my subjects have been college students. The 6 players in my blindfold test are the 6 professional trumpet players who have happened to participate and signed the subject consent form allowing me to publish their videos. If you've take then test, you know the percentage of those who place on the red.
That said, my personal impressions (take them with a grain of salt) is that this situation is fairly uncommon.
| crzytptman wrote: | | If you can play everything all day with the edge of the rim in your top lip, you're one of the exceptions. |
To clarify my own thoughts, I think all placements are "exceptions." The more embouchures I get the chance to study up close the more I see that every embouchure is unique and has its own idiosyncrasies. This is why I feel it's not necessary to offer general recommendations for mouthpiece placement beyond that each player should find the "sweet spot" and work on developing their whole range with that setting.
| 2-5-1 wrote: | | In fact, all my bad habits were forcing the mouthpiece lower; so low that in what little bit of upper register I had at the time, the mouthpiece would literally slide off my top lip. |
Your experience mirrors that of some students I've worked with. Often a student's mouthpiece placement will drift to a different spot on the lips as they correct other mechanical flaws. Sometimes it's more centered, sometimes it goes to even higher or lower on the lips, or even off to one side.
My own personal experience, however, was that working on mechanics didn't correct my embouchure issues until I was explicitly taught to change my mouthpiece placement to use more lower lip inside. As I got used to this new embouchure it drifted even lower until the rim ended up on my upper lip. It drifted to this placement because that's where it happens to work best for me. I don't recommend this for all players, of course, but it does happen.
| PhxHorn wrote: | | I got 3 of 6. I would have guessed that these are high school players, seeing as how the playing examples were kind of rough-sounding. |
Please drop me a private message sometime. I would enjoy getting the chance to look closely at your chops as an example for players to emulate.
| zachman727 wrote: | | If "99 out of 100 will have playing issues" by playing in the red, then 1 out of 100 would be able to play in the red. Is it completely impossible that those players would have "playing issues" by not playing in the red? |
I want to reiterate that we shouldn't read too much into my "study." It's not very well conducted and the results don't necessarily apply to the general population of brass players and teachers. However, based on the cursory stats I've already done as well as the comments here, I think that we can say with some confidence the following:
1. Most teachers and players don't do better than random chance trying to guess a player's mouthpiece placement by sound alone.
2. Most teachers and players listening to the sound clips find flaws in players who place the mouthpiece both on and off the red of the lips, therefor technical flaws are not only caused by mouthpiece placement.
I can't go beyond that, however one implication we can draw from those conclusions is that some teachers who point to a particular mouthpiece placement as causing technique flaws may be missing the actual source of a student's troubles.
Interesting thoughts, everyone. Thanks again for participating.
Dave
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mcgovnor
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:14 am Post subject: while |
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| There is no way to tell where the inner edge of the mouthpiece is ending it's arc on the upper lip by looking through a visualizer. This is due to the way the lip moves, under the rim. Pulling sentences out of context, and then writing paragraphs following is certainly within anyone's right, but is not really a constructive approach. If this was simply a blindfold test, it would be a fun deal. However, there is a virtual point attempting to be made, not presented clearly in the initial presentation, but evidenced later. The comment regarding antiquity..spells it out. While some players think it wise to jump on the latest, and I mean in the past 50 years, chop doctor or approach..or glean a salient point from a few and begin their own..defense fund. The better part, meaning quality, and majority, of the brass world knows that MOST players will player with greater success with the inner edge of the mouthpiece ending it's arc outside the red. There are many reasons why this is the preferred placement, in MOST cases. The theory has it's basis in the success and failure of MOST players, and that, looks back..is based on.."antiquity". Antiquity is a word some use to express a disdain for past accomplishment, with a negative connotation... as if the effort given to forging a way out, merits something. Thank God for the Clarke Technical Studies, written in antiquity, and the advise he gave his students, through whom I and many others were able to successfully overcome the habits fallen into by MANY who play too low, into the red. Among them, but not nearly all..tonguing through the teeth, which does not serve MOST players well, for ALL articulation..rough slurring, especially in wider intervals, hampered endurance, unreliable attacks in the register above high c, true flexibility and control, register to register, with one setting, including dynamic(especially soft)..Pitch control register to register. For MOST players, playing in the red exacerbates these problems, which are inherent..present themselves as challenges, to MOST players, to begin with. If the exception, and placing in the red..just like placing so high you are under the nose, works for you, and through trail and error, produces the results desired over a period of time, that is a great thing. We teach, however , the fundamentals with an eye on what has proven the best, for the MOST. We deal with exceptions on a one to one basis, and thank God again, that as with all things human, we can bend, and flex, and think, and over come most obstacles. |
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 7:46 am Post subject: Re: while |
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| mcgovnor wrote: | | There is no way to tell where the inner edge of the mouthpiece is ending it's arc on the upper lip by looking through a visualizer. |
I'm not talking about a rim visualizer, I'm talking about a transparent mouthpiece with which you can see directly under the rim.
| Quote: | | This is due to the way the lip moves, under the rim. |
How does the lip move under the rim? Do you feel the rim remains on the same placement on the lip or are referring to the phenomenon of the mouthpiece and lips together getting pulled up and down? I'm not sure what you're referring to.
| Quote: | | Pulling sentences out of context, and then writing paragraphs following is certainly within anyone's right, but is not really a constructive approach. If this was simply a blindfold test, it would be a fun deal. However, there is a virtual point attempting to be made, not presented clearly in the initial presentation, but evidenced later. |
Relax. I stated from the get go not to read too much into this. And I've been clear from the beginning also where my thoughts lay (just follow the link to the initial blindfold test and read what I wrote there and the link I provided for more info).
Am I biased? Sure. So are you. We all are. I do try to qualify my statements based on my personal impressions and those that are developed through scientific analysis and research that attempt to control for researcher bias.
Any "virtual points" I'm making are merely in responses to comments that don't seem to hold water to me, that's all. Rather than speculate on my motivations I would prefer that you comment on my reasoning. If you can point out a flaw in my logic or respond to my questions and comments about yours it would help keep this discussion productive.
| Quote: | | The better part, meaning quality, and majority, of the brass world knows that MOST players will player with greater success with the inner edge of the mouthpiece ending it's arc outside the red. |
I agree with you. I thought I had made this clear before. Sorry for any confusion. Just to clarify, most players find placing on the red to not be an ideal placement, however a minority of players do find it best.
Where I find fault is the logic that you've presented here that one will develop corns on the lips from placing on the red and that this is why one shouldn't place there. Best as I can tell, this idea isn't factual. Can anyone else offer their experiences developing corns on their lips where the rim contacts it?
| Quote: | | Antiquity is a word some use to express a disdain for past accomplishment, with a negative connotation... as if the effort given to forging a way out, merits something. |
You're reading too much into my statement. An "argument from antiquity" is a term used for a fallacious argument. It doesn't mean that your thoughts are wrong, however the logic you're presenting (that this is how it's been done for a long time) isn't sound. You might indeed be right, but the evidence your presenting doesn't support your position.
Thanks for clarifying.
Dave
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 9:28 am Post subject: |
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The logical fallacies are also from antiquity, so put that in the red of your lip and play well.
What a fool. Mike knows what he's talking about, and presents it very well. Those who have ears will hear, and those that have eyes will see.
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | The logical fallacies are also from antiquity, so put that in the red of your lip and play well. |
Here's my clarification, with some bold text to help me be clearer than I was before.
| Quote: | | An "argument from antiquity" is a term used for a fallacious argument. It doesn't mean that your thoughts are wrong, however the logic you're presenting (that this is how it's been done for a long time) isn't sound. You might indeed be right, but the evidence your presenting doesn't support your position. |
What I'm suggesting is that we reexamine the evidence we're using to form our opinions on this topic, not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Thank you. That's very kind of you to say so. 
But it also should go without saying that even fools can say something insightful once in a while. If you have a disagreement with a particular point, please make it. Name calling doesn't help move the conversation forward either.
Thanks,
Dave
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mcgovnor
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 12:30 pm Post subject: BTW |
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BTW, as the efficacy of this thread has..evolved... I've stopped watching this thread..even now....ugh........................................I'm ..blindfolded:) |
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PacoTheTrumpeter
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Quote:
All I can say at this point is that each of the clips shows evidence of a player with fundamental problems in sound production and flexibility, and that none of the flaws in their playing can be solely attributed to the placement of the mouthpiece.
Could you clarify as to what you heard indicated fundamental flaws and what you feel those issues were being caused by? |
What I heard differed from player to player, but it is all easily audible. The main problems included lack of connection between slurred notes, reliance on muscling or overblowing, and unevenness of sound quality between different registers. Of course, clean multiple octave slurs can pose a challenge to players at any level, but there is a difference between requiring several attempts and simply being unable to execute something. Also, I remember that at least one of the players in the recordings was glissing, rather than slurring, which complicates matters. Still, I would never attempt to attribute a cause to these issues under such circumstances. The cause is irrelevant to an audience, and may or may not have to do with the placement of the mouthpiece. Plenty of people form very nice-looking embouchures and demonstrate chronic problems. The issue is with the sound that is made, not the mechanism that enables it.
I would be very interested in hearing those players with significantly in-the-red settings play something that tests varied (including differently-tongued) articulations, dynamic shifts, and lyrical playing. |
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PacoTheTrumpeter
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Please forgive me for not finding this information elsewhere, but what was the process involved in providing the plastic mouthpieces. Were they modeled after the players' usual equipment? Did the players already own them? |
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Wilktone wrote: | | crzytptman wrote: | | The logical fallacies are also from antiquity, so put that in the red of your lip and play well. |
Here's my clarification, with some bold text to help me be clearer than I was before.
| Quote: | | An "argument from antiquity" is a term used for a fallacious argument. It doesn't mean that your thoughts are wrong, however the logic you're presenting (that this is how it's been done for a long time) isn't sound. You might indeed be right, but the evidence your presenting doesn't support your position. |
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Right. Here's the evidence:
| Quote: | | There are many reasons why this is the preferred placement, in MOST cases. The theory has it's basis in the success and failure of MOST players, and that, looks back..is based on.."antiquity". Antiquity is a word some use to express a disdain for past accomplishment, with a negative connotation... as if the effort given to forging a way out, merits something. Thank God for the Clarke Technical Studies, written in antiquity, and the advise he gave his students, through whom I and many others were able to successfully overcome the habits fallen into by MANY who play too low, into the red. |
Bolded for clarification.
I think I need a blindfold too, Mike! 
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mcgovnor
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:09 pm Post subject: and |
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| and earplugs:) |
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| PacoTheTrumpeter wrote: | | Please forgive me for not finding this information elsewhere, but what was the process involved in providing the plastic mouthpieces. Were they modeled after the players' usual equipment? Did the players already own them? |
My dissertation research used a custom made transparent mouthpiece that Terry Warburton built for me. I later also bought one of Donald Reinhardt's transparent mouthpieces on eBay for some of my research as well. As the plexiglass develop small cracks in them and get cloudy over time you have to keep replacing them or else they don't photograph/video well. Kelly Mouthpieces now make a "crystal clear" version that are very cheap and I've been using their's for a number of years now.
| Quote: | | I would be very interested in hearing those players with significantly in-the-red settings play something that tests varied (including differently-tongued) articulations, dynamic shifts, and lyrical playing. |
Maybe not quite what you're looking for, but you can watch this for more of one of those players.
http://youtu.be/lyxXOcHhYV4?t=48m26s
| crzytptman wrote: | | Right. Here's the evidence: |
Thank you for clarifying. Which specific point that I made does the Clarke studies refute? My copy of the Clarke Technical Studies doesn't have any suggestions about mouthpiece placement that I can find. Am I missing it or is this written somewhere else?
Dave
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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So, I put a plastic bag over my head and taped it tight around my neck. Then I started counting backwards from 100.
At 75, I thought you were right about the Clarke instructions.
At 50, I pasted in the link to the original, so you could understand what Mike was inferring. Careful though - they're from antiquity.
https://www.purtle.com/clarkes-technical-studies-then-and-now-jeff-purtle
At 20, I thought about explaining to you that you said mcgovern was using a logical fallacy because - "the logic you're presenting (that this is how it's been done for a long time) isn't sound. You might indeed be right, but the evidence your presenting doesn't support your position", even though his evidence was the use of the antiquated Clarke Tech.
At 3, this topic lost all importance to me.
Once I got the tape off, I took off my blindfold and I'm now free to go about my affairs.
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | https://www.purtle.com/clarkes-technical-studies-then-and-now-jeff-purtle |
Am I missing it? I've read through that link a couple of times and even tried searching for "embouchure," "placement," "red," and "vermillion" in the text and don't see any specific recommendations Clarke or Purtle wrote there about mouthpiece placement.
Thanks for posting it, though.
Dave
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mcgovnor
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:05 pm Post subject: ahhmm |
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No one said Clarke said a thing about placement. This is why so many people leave this forum, my friend. A post is in front of you. But you read it, and everything else it seems, for what you don't see. The reference to Clarke, is in the context of THE RIDICULOUS STATEMENT REGARDING THE EFFICACY OF PEDAGOGY HAVING ANYTHING TO DO WITH CHRONOLOGY. MY STATEMENT REGARDING CLARKE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH PLACEMENT. IT HAD TO DO WITH TIMELESS WISDOM, STANDING, REGARDLESS OF CHRONOLOGY AND THE WANNA BE CHOP DR DE JOUR.
I pay no attention to the incorrect advise, given in antiquity, of Arban, concerning a one third two thirds placement for everyone...and the same advise, shared more recently, by Costello. But I practice using their books, most every day. For most players, Claude Gordon's advise is a good place to begin, and let the chip fall, a bit, where it may. |
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abontrumpet
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| roynj wrote: | | Playing the red can actually help tone quality, if that's all you're looking for. But it does not help with endurance and range, and can lead to severe lip scarring. On sound alone, the issue of playing the "red" isn't relevant (IMO). |
'Nough said.
Let's go home people. Go practice. |
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 2:56 am Post subject: Re: ahhmm |
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Good morning, everyone.
| mcgovnor wrote: | | No one said Clarke said a thing about placement. |
Sorry, I guess I took this statement you wrote out of context.
| Quote: | | Thank God for the Clarke Technical Studies, written in antiquity, and the advise he gave his students, through whom I and many others were able to successfully overcome the habits fallen into by MANY who play too low, into the red. |
I felt that this meant that Clarke had written something about mouthpiece placement. I guess I'm not being very good at explaining myself either. Just because something has been around for a long time doesn't make it good (or bad), but rather whether the ideas hold water. If Clarke had something to say about mouthpiece placement I would be interested in reading it to try to work out why he said what he did.
| Quote: | | I pay no attention to the incorrect advise, given in antiquity, of Arban, concerning a one third two thirds placement for everyone...and the same advise, shared more recently, by Costello. But I practice using their books, most every day. For most players, Claude Gordon's advise is a good place to begin, and let the chip fall, a bit, where it may. |
So we're mostly in agreement here. The only point where I seem to differ is that I allow my students to let the mouthpiece placement end up where it wants to go and work from there first.
| Quote: | | Playing the red can actually help tone quality, if that's all you're looking for. But it does not help with endurance and range, and can lead to severe lip scarring. |
If this were true then it would certainly be possible to tell if a player placed the mouthpiece on the red by sound alone.
Thanks again for everyone who has participated and taken the blindfold test. If you haven't and still would like to, you can do so here.
Dave
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 8:46 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The only point where I seem to differ is that I allow my students to let the mouthpiece placement end up where it wants to go and work from there first. |
See, this is where a good teacher will step in and say "well, you might think that will work now, but in the rigors of day to day working trumpet it's gonna give you problems." A good teacher has the experience and can see the pitfalls ahead, no matter how it currently works at the student's level.
It's the same as the training my daughter gets as an elite bball player - "you might think you can do it that way now, but when you get to the next level they're gonna shut you down". Or, all the footwork training she goes through so she will be able to execute at the elite level and not get injured. She can't just go out and do what she wants, she has to work on things that might be a bit uncomfortable now until certain muscles are developed. That will pay off big.
There was a stretch where I played a very small mpc - Callet 15S vari-cup bukur. I have big lips, and the inner rim fit inside the red of both lips. I'm not a roll in player. That mpc was like magic for range and endurance. Then I started playing lead/featured solo in a hot swing band. Gigging almost every night, 3 hot 1hr sets, lot's of traveling. About 3 years in, I started to have problems. The spot was getting tough and inflexible. Playing felt stuffy, and the mpc kept getting smaller and smaller. Accuracy suffered, tone suffered, dynamic range suffered. I tried going back to my 14A4C, but it felt like a tuba mpc. When I left that band after 4 years, I did go back, but my range and endurance really suffered until I recovered strength in the muscles surrounding my lips. I was constantly pulling the mpc down into my lip for range, just to get though gigs. Not a fun time at all. I went back to the Spaulding book but kept playing, as that's how I built my range in the USMC. That helped a lot, and then I started working with Gordon's materials and everything got better. Now I use a good size mpc with both lips inside the rim, and a time tested practice routine.
The exception? Clifford Brown played a Bach 17C with his big lips. From pictures, his top lip is big and thick so his physiology allowed that to work. None of my students have that physiology, so we keep both lips inside the rim and go to work every day.
Now, where's my plastic bag . . .
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Wilktone
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | See, this is where a good teacher will step in and say "well, you might think that will work now, but in the rigors of day to day working trumpet it's gonna give you problems." A good teacher has the experience and can see the pitfalls ahead, no matter how it currently works at the student's level. |
That's a good point. The trick for teachers is to understand if you're making a correction, or to use an analogy, asking all your art students to paint right handed because that's what works for most. Sometimes it's good to step in and show the student how to hold the paint brush. Sometimes it's better to let them pick it up with the hand that they want to paint with, even if it's left handed.
Dave
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2012 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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It's still a hand. The teacher can help the student with the physical mechanics no matter which hand.
I have a good friend that is a gifted painter. 35 yrs ago, his art was fresh and unique. He applied to PAFA and was accepted. The next time I talked to him, he was complaining that they made him take line class. A whole class on drawing and painting lines. The guy had been using found objects to paint with, and using very unorthodox technique to produce beautiful works. He had presented these works when he applied, so what's up with line class? A few years later we got together, and he said that class was one of the best things he ever did for his art.
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