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trumpet bore size effect


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Ten High
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: trumpet bore size effect Reply with quote

As bore size goes from small, say .437 to large, say .470, what is the actual effect felt by the player? Is there a noticeable change, and if so, what is it?
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connicalman
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends.

IMO, two factors matter as much, or more, than instrument bore. First, mouthpiece throat affects how much air can move through, and second, the many other design elements other than diameter @ 2nd valve slide affect the way the instrument resonates.

This is only one of many opinions. Some wiser people than me, they'll know more. What I have is experience with a bevy of Conn cornets, from 0.438" to 0.484". A moderately deep, moderately large mouthpiece - yet still 'medium' as these pieces go - makes for easy playing on most others except for my 28A. In that one it feels like I'm having to fill half a tuba. Well, not that much, but that's the general direction of my answer. The smallest bore cornet, with a big-ish mouthpiece, is harder to fill in both range and endurance, than the medium, large, and trombone-like tubing.

Are you interested in variations within models as well? Because then it might be more apples-to-apples, vis. Bach grande, larg, vent.
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Ten High
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you are saying. How about this case: A Kanstul Chicago 1000 model, bore .460 compared with the Kanstul model 1070 at .470 bore? How would they feel or play differently? (I don't know what other differences there are in these two models, but both seem to be in the same model series.)
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JWG
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Owning both a Conn 15B and a Flip Oakes Wild Thing, I can tell you exactly how each bore size feels on the same mouthpiece.

In "normal" mf & mp, in-the-staff playing, their exists no huge difference in feel. However, when you go to extremes in any of the other four directions (i.e., under the staff, over the staff, pp, and ff), the small bore horn feels limited.

Being used to a large bore horn and large bore mouthpieces, my expended air tends to back up on me on small bore horns. All I can really say about feel is that large bore horns seem more forgiving and allow you to lip up and down more easily; thus, they "feel" easier to play due to having less expended air restriction (once you get used to laying back and playing with less resistance and more aperature control). However, the "feel" does not get noticed as much as the "sound". More importantly, when I want to sound "broad" and have a "fat" sound, I find that the sound propagates better on a large bore horn and seems less stuffy. Small bore horns sound more "compact" and limited. I like my sound much better and can hear myself vocalize better on a large bore horn than a small bore horn.
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I generally concur with what these other 2 posters are saying, but add to the mix that "bore size" only tells you how big the tubing is at the second valve crook. What path has that bore taken to get there? And what does it do from there to the bell?

The answers to those questions are HUGE. A horn that starts small(ish) and expands to .470", and keeps getting bigger ... well that's what I'm playing now. The bigger size is not necessarily harder to "fill," nor does it have to be played louder. In fact my current daily player responds at quiet volume better than any other horn I've ever tried, which is why I'm playing it
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: trumpet bore size effect Reply with quote

Ten High wrote:
As bore size goes from small, say .437 to large, say .470, what is the actual effect felt by the player? Is there a noticeable change, and if so, what is it?


It's my theory that the increase of ID, or bore, dilutes or dispels the acoustic impedance, so that the player feels less resistance. The differences are small, but they can be heard as a change in intensity.
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MattC
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: trumpet bore size effect Reply with quote

Ten High wrote:
As bore size goes from small, say .437 to large, say .470, what is the actual effect felt by the player? Is there a noticeable change, and if so, what is it?


What is the "actual effect" and "what is felt by the player" may be two different things.

One might feel a different resistance but is that a resistance to air flow or a resistance to making the horn resonate in the way you need to get your sound? The actual change in air flow resistance is fairly small. Simple experiment: remove the mouthpiece and wrap your lips around the lead pipe and blow. I doubt you can find a horn that fights air flow as much as you might "feel" when playing. The difference in conductance between a ML bore and a L bore tube is minimal. The difference in conductance for each 90 or 180 degree bend in tubing is much greater. Do you feel a big change in resistance playing E open vs 1+2?

Beware of false comparisons. I can tell you the difference in feel between my M bore my Ml and my L bore horns. They have three different bells, lead pipes and keys.

Anyway, prepare for this thread to go out of control.
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connicalman
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The simplest answer can be put this way: A larger bore trumpet isn't going to rob you of breath.

On the other side, a small difference in mouthpiece throat -- and a host of other factors, such as the horn weight and the wrap (more shapes in cornets, less in trumpets) -- will give different feels, and will demand more or less air.

The 'smallest' trumpet I've played is a 0.438" bore with a very tight, small, bell wrap. An extreme design, it really pierces even at medium volume, is more directional, and is a bear to play below staff G. Go figure. Made to be a screamer.

A trumpet of equal small bore but with a normal bell and wider wrap is a great all-arounder.

Those I speak of are the Conn Opera Grand and Connquest. They are the same bore but play very differently due to the size and shape of the bell and bell taper.

I'd tend to agree about the fatness capacity that comes at low volume with large diameter tubes.
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Joo
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

connicalman wrote:
The simplest answer can be put this way: A larger bore trumpet isn't going to rob you of breath.

On the other side, a small difference in mouthpiece throat -- and a host of other factors, such as the horn weight and the wrap (more shapes in cornets, less in trumpets) -- will give different feels, and will demand more or less air.

The 'smallest' trumpet I've played is a 0.438" bore with a very tight, small, bell wrap. An extreme design, it really pierces even at medium volume, is more directional, and is a bear to play below staff G. Go figure. Made to be a screamer.

A trumpet of equal small bore but with a normal bell and wider wrap is a great all-arounder.

Those I speak of are the Conn Opera Grand and Connquest. They are the same bore but play very differently due to the size and shape of the bell and bell taper.

I'd tend to agree about the fatness capacity that comes at low volume with large diameter tubes.


Nice explanation! Are you familiar with Yamaha trumpets?
I use a Yamaha HGS, Big trumpet in size, for already 12 years! Last two weaks I was using an yamaha 4335 G. At the begining I felt big resistance, but one week later it was like a toy. Why is that? Just because of shape? (I have big hands. Like Rachmaninov...)


Joo
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connicalman
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Joo

I know Yamaha made some medium-bore trumpets, and that guys here on TH say the way to make the new top-shelf models sing is to back off a bit. But I haven't played anything except a YTR-232 last year, one that was bought and fixed up for a student. It played well, and normal, for a good student trumpet.

My nephew has a 4335. I'll catch him for the Holidays & check it out.
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Joo
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks in advance!

Kind regards.
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VetPsychWars
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

connicalman wrote:

I know Yamaha made some medium-bore trumpets, and that guys here on TH say the way to make the new top-shelf models sing is to back off a bit.


I have a theory that many people nowadays blow way too freaking hard. It's a good idea in general to start low and slow and gentle and "sneak up on it" until you can learn to play the horn most efficiently.

Tom
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The main difference I can tell between large and small bore horns is how loudly/powerfully I can play them. The large bore ones seem to have a little more power when pushed hard. That said, if the horn is designed correctly around its bore size, the differences won't be great.
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KanstulBrass
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I might offer a different answer:

Larger bore horns have more surface area inside to resonate.

That said, there are players who can stimulate all the air in the room with a small bore, and players whose sound barely reaches the back wall on a large bore.

So, your mileage may vary.

In case anyone was interested, I've been playing .464" (Benge, Kanstul) and .463" (Schilke) since the late 70's.
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Tony Scodwell
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:29 am    Post subject: Bore size Reply with quote

Bore size is akin to kicking tires on a car. It doesn't tell you anything and to prove the point [yet again] Maynard and Cat Anderson and Snooky to name just a few, found the 38B Conn to be just fine. Oh yes, the 38B stood for .438 bore.
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Bore size Reply with quote

Tony Scodwell wrote:
Bore size is akin to kicking tires on a car. It doesn't tell you anything and to prove the point [yet again] Maynard and Cat Anderson and Snooky to name just a few, found the 38B Conn to be just fine. Oh yes, the 38B stood for .438 bore.
Tony Scodwell
Scodwell USA Trumpets and Flugelhorns available in the US only from Washington Music Center, call Lee Walkowich at 301.946.8808 or now in Europe at Musik-Bertram, Freiburg, Germany.


Tony,

I have much respect for you, your playing and your businesses. But are you really saying that bore has no effect on the trumpet, or is it just one of the things that have no effect? Do you mean that neither the mouth pipe or bell have anything to do with how a horn plays? The valves, perhaps, make no difference either? Or is it all these things and more make up the differences, just not the bore? Really?

No one is asking whether a certain bore is better than another. No one is suggesting a preference. The OP asked what the effects of bore size are. That is fairly easily quantified, really. You just get two horns that are, for all intents and purposes, the same except for bore and compare them.

For example, every time I compare a Kanstul 1000 to a 1001, there is a specific discernible difference. When I substitute the #2 slide for the #1 on my Wild Thing, there is a consistent discernible difference.

Great players playing medium bore trumpets proves nothing about bore size other than they could and did play the smaller bore design. I wonder why Maynard didn't stay with the .438"? We should ask him... Oh.
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Don Herman rev2
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Find the link to Jim Donaldson's Gearhead site and read the article about the irrelevance of bore size. The problem is it is one of many variables and has arguably the least impact on the feel and sound of the horn. At least from a physics point of view...
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EdMann
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To take the same horn and "make" it larger, or smaller, is nonsense. Horns aren't designed to have interchangable bores. The Benge 3X and MLP pair are as close as you'll get to that concept but are not the same horn with different bores. Looking at bore size and determining how that's going to be for you is the wrong question. Sidin' with Tony on this one!

ed
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EdMann wrote:
To take the same horn and "make" it larger, or smaller, is nonsense. Horns aren't designed to have interchangable bores. The Benge 3X and MLP pair are as close as you'll get to that concept but are not the same horn with different bores. Looking at bore size and determining how that's going to be for you is the wrong question. Sidin' with Tony on this one!

ed


You're right about the Benge 3X and 3X+, Ed. They had totally different valves with different bore centers, slide crooks, etc. That's why I cited the Kanstul twins which ARE the same horns except for bore.

Again, I didn't say anything about bore being the be-all and end-all of how a trumpet plays. My point is that it IS one element to a good balanced design and it DOES have a specific effect. Great designs find a balance in the entire design, so bore comes into play when placed in the whole assembly of parts. That's why a good medium bore can play very similarly to a certain ML or large bore. But there will be differences. These are chosen on purpose to achieve a specific result based on the design goal.

Bore alone has an effect.

Brian
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: trumpet bore size effect Reply with quote

Ten High wrote:
As bore size goes from small, say .437 to large, say .470, what is the actual effect felt by the player? Is there a noticeable change, and if so, what is it?


For a time, back in about 2008 or so, Ferguson Music in La Crescenta, CA had two C trumpets from Kanstul. One was a stock 1510-A with its .462" bore. The other was also a 1510-A but it had been ordered with a .464" bore. I played the two, one after the other, on the same day with the same mouthpiece. The larger of the two gave me about 3 semi-tones more upper range before the impedance level ramped up. That was the difference in feel.

Brian
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