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Patrick Z, ZM and S cups


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leadlad
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:33 pm    Post subject: Patrick Z, ZM and S cups Reply with quote

Can anyone please describe the differences between thePatrick Z, ZM and S cups.

Thanks.
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James W. Leach
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:13 pm    Post subject: Patrick Z, ZM , and S cups Reply with quote

I've got all 3 on 88 rims .
The S is a very shallow V cup and the Z is a deep V cup .
The ZM , which I use the most , is a hybrid bowl and V cup ,
shallower than the Z and deeper than both the S and M cups .
I have the ZM cup with both the Z backbore and commercial backbores .
A great piece and Steve is one of the nicest guys you'll ever deal with as well as one of the top studio musicians in the Nashville area .


Last edited by James W. Leach on Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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leadlad
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. How much deeper is the ZM compared to the S. I find the S just a hair too shallow?
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- King Silver Flair 423xxx, Reeves aligned.
-NYTC Stage 1 Flugelhorn.
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James W. Leach
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:08 pm    Post subject: PATRICK Z , ZM , and S cups Reply with quote

He has an M cup , however , after 30 minutes in the upper register for me , I bottom out with the S and M cups due to lip swelling . The M cup is only very slightly deeper than the S cup . I can play all night on the ZM
piece . YMMV .
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leadlad
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks James, I noticed that you had an 88 ZM for sale, is it still up for grabs?
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- King Silver Flair 423xxx, Reeves aligned.
-NYTC Stage 1 Flugelhorn.
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James W. Leach
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:00 am    Post subject: Patrick Z, ZM , and S cups Reply with quote

No . I've been using it a year or so and somehow got the itch to go on a mp safari but eventually came back to this piece and love it . Highly recommended .
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Usedtobegood
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a big fan of Patrick mouthpieces. Steve has done a great job combining rims, cups and backbores that really work. And even for hacks like me. They are most comfortable rims I have ever played.

Steve describes the M as medium shallow but to me it is shallow. But I have seen what Steve plays on so I can see how he would describe the M as medium!

If you have any questions give Steve a shout. As James said he's the nicest guy and he'll answer any questions you have. He's a monster player who really knows the design part of mouthpieces and what works.
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underdog
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:17 pm    Post subject: different cups Reply with quote

Hey guys. Here are the differences in my cups.

The "S" cup is pretty shallow. Has a straight down shot to get it away from your chops so that you don't bottom out, and helps keep the pitch center and sound even as you get tired.

The "M" cup is the same shape, but goes down a little further initially. Again, to get it away from your chops so that you don't bottom out on a commercial mouthpiece.

The "ZM" cup is very similar to the "M" cup, but is just slightly a bit of a hybrid cup shape between the commercial V shape, and a conventional bowl shape. It's a tiny bit deeper than the M cup, but not by much.

The "Z" cup is a conventional bowl cup shape and slots between a Bach C cup, and a Reeves M cup. It leans more toward the bigger side than the smaller side. It has proven to be a good cup shape and very balanced for the player that is just not able to play the V shaped cups.

The rest of the classical line is all C type bowl shaped cups.

Feel free to contact me if I can help in any way. Thanks. Steve
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gdong
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As stated before, Steve is very helpful and gets right back to you.

I've been a client since the LOUD mouthpiece days and have spent about 3 years mucking about with just about every mouthpiece in the 7-3 range I can get my hands on. I've also made some drastic instrument changes since I first started using Patrick/LOUD mouthpieces...

I found the S cup to be fairly deep compared to industry standard lead cups. It is visually deeper than a curry S cup, and the 88S I had has much less compression than, say, a shew-lead or Curry 40S. I really like the 88S on piccolo, but wish the rim was a little wider. For reference, my favorite 3 lead mouthpieces of all time are (in this order) the GR 65EST, Callet SC6, and Curry 50XS. All of which are shallower but also more open in blow than the 88S in my opinion.

I had an 84M and that mouthpiece was excellent. I used it for classical playing and crossover playing and even for horn-band shows. It was very versatile but was easy to overblow.

At this same time I had the old 3Z. This mouthpiece had one of the most agreeable rims I've ever played but was a little too tight blowing for what I was using it for. I also had and still have a 3F flugel mouthpeice that is, after years of mucking about, still the best flugelhorn mouthpiece I've every played. It's inner cup shape/backbore/rim is delightful and the main reason why I'm crawling back to Steve for more mouthpieces again!

For the record, the Patrick 3 rim is, diameter wise, in-between a pickett 5 and pickett 4. The rim is flat like the pickett 5, but a little wider and with a slightly crisper bite.
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underdog
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:12 am    Post subject: shallower lead cups Reply with quote

Thans Derek for chiming in with your perspective on your mouthpiece journey!
My cups get noticeably shallower when you hit the 91S. You can order the others in a shallower cup, but it's a custom order. (It's really expensive for us small business orders to stock so many models...!)
When it comes to overblowing. If you have a tendency to really play hard and want to put TONS of air through the horn, you may very well like my vintage series better.
My attempt with the regular commercial line was to help players be able to "lean up against the resistance", but not try to bully your way through. It takes a while to learn to back off, but if you can, it can help you become much more efficient and let your equipment work for you a lot more. Then range and endurance should go up, sound should get bigger, and pitch center stay intact even when you're tired.
Continue to chime in if you have other comments or any questions. Thanks.
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gdong
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Absolutely. I totally agree with the resistance thing.

I have a very efficient set-up but because of my routine (buzzing basics every day going on 7 years!). I can put a tremendous amount of pressure through the horn/mouthpiece without getting spread. I really like high-compression cups, but I run into trouble with overly tight mouthpieces when I try to blow air farther through the horn and they get stuffy for me. I found with the 88S that it was great in the practice room but was too much work when playing the Bill Chase book in the Chase Experiment (I remember we had some correspondence about that Steve)

I really like the GR 65EST mouthpiece for lead, it has the most seriously zinging G's that just pop out of the horn even though it's fairly wide in diameter for a lead piece. I'd be interested to see this mouthpiece/cup reverse engineered. I'd love to get one with your 3 rim.
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underdog
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:53 am    Post subject: smaller piece Reply with quote

You should try the 91S. I wonder if that would be more along the lines of what you're looking for in the lead piece. For that matter, the PBC model may be a good try for you as well. I don't think that the smaller inner diameter will be a problem for you at all, knowing some of what you've told me about your physical set up and approach to the horn.
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gdong
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I will try them. I seem to get a thin sound our of overly narrow or thick-rimmed mouthpieces. I wish there was a place I could try them all out!
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underdog
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:13 pm    Post subject: trying them all out Reply with quote

I know... I wish that I had the means to get them to places for people to try them all out. Stay on Dillon Music. That's where a few are, but not many.
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rick398
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have the mouthpiece specs changed from the LOUD days? I've got a 78M and an 81M from back then, just curious.
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underdog
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

rick398 wrote:
Have the mouthpiece specs changed from the LOUD days? I've got a 78M and an 81M from back then, just curious.


Neither the 78M or the 81M have changed. I tweaked a few hole sizes, i.e. loose 28 vs 28 for a few of the upper numbers. The 3C rim is now the same as the 3F (flugle) and the Rick Baptist model. RB3B.

I revisited the 84M rim as it never felt exactly the way I wanted it to in the LOUD time period. Other than that, the outer shape changed just a little. All of those designs were by me in the LOUD time period as well. Same person and machine cutting, etc.

Mostly, I've just added a lot more product line and options.
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gdong
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just got a new patrick 3C in the mail and can confirm it is identical in rim profile to the old loud LM-3F (not that I didn't believe Steve!).

I did a blind test with my brass quintet plus an oboe player on Bb and C trumpet and they chose the Patrick 3C every time over a Pickett 5C and an ACB 5C.

The ACB had the biggest blow, deepest cup, most rounded rim, and the squirmiest upper register (above concert F6). To me it felt like it had the biggest sound of the three outside of the upper register. It also flowed very nicely in the money register and resulted in the fewest missed notes due to pilot error.

The Pickett had the tightest blow, a flat rim that is thinner than the Patrick, a slightly shallower but similarly shaped cup to the ACB, and the most control above F6. However it was the most restrictive in the money register and so without perfect flow and center it behaved the worst (think Charlier 6 on your lead mouthpiece).

The Patrick 3C had the thickest and flattest rim with the sharpest bite. However the rim is not what I would call thick. (think 2C). It seems ever so slightly wider than the other two, probably due to this thicker rim. The cup shape was the least bowlish of the three but felt like it had a similar volume (the bottom half is V and the top half is concave). The throat appears to be bigger than the other two and the upper register performance was in between the pickett and the ACB. The flow was also in between the two mouthpieces above.

All in all, these three are basically the same rim diameter. Also, the patrick 3C was considerably favored on C trumpet whereas it was only slightly favored on Bb.

So I think I'm sticking with the patrick 3C for awhile, at least until the next round of recordings and auditions are up.

I can't wait to get the patrick 3C cornet I have on order and do the same test on cornet with same 3 mouthpieces!
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gdong
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anyone have a 91S to loan or trade? Based on my experience with the 88S, I don't think I can handle something that narrow in the rim. I might have you put the PBC on a 3 rim for me...
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underdog
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:21 am    Post subject: RB3B Reply with quote

Hey Derek. Not to be too much of a salesman... but based on what you're using the 3C on, and the fact that you like the flugel piece as well, I'd try the RB3B for some of your classical rep. It's a great match with the flugel and 3C and is easy to switch back and forth with. It gives a warmer sound and more depth to the sound as well over the 3C. The 3C is the better all around mouthpiece for the classical literature and also for gigging, but the RB3B should be in your arsenal if you like the two other mouthpieces.
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gdong
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I plan to have one. I need to get rid of all my other crap first!
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