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PHYSICS of core, responsiveness, focus, projection...


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Cadenza
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:52 am    Post subject: PHYSICS of core, responsiveness, focus, projection... Reply with quote

These terms are ones we see and/or use all the time, however I'm not sure we all use them in the same ways. In fact, I'm pretty certain we don't.

So --- does anyone have good definitions for these? Perhaps with some elegant physics / acoustics illustrations or explanations to help these terms become more meaningful among different players?

Hoping some of our learned brethren will chime in, as well as any THers with opinions or experience to share. Feel free to add to the list of terms at hand, like:
Core
Responsiveness
Focus
Projection
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tptptp
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd sure love to see some actual analysis of this stuff, too. Also concepts like bright, dark, fast air, pinched, teutonic, tongue position effect on frequency, etc.
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royjohn
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd love to see it, too, but I haven't run across it. With very easily found software (Audacity?) that allows spectorgrams of sounds, it is easy enough to record sounds and produce your own spectrograms. Listen to the various sounds (with different trumpets or mpcs, or interchangeable bells, etc.) and characterize them. Then look at the spectrograms and see how they are different.

Here is a link to a page where tuba guru Rick Denney did such a study of tuba sound. I got as far as getting a mic and recording device, but I haven't gotten any further than that myself. If you've an interest, have at it and PM me about what you're doing. I need a little competition to get me going.
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royjohn
Trumpets: 1928 Holton Llewellyn Model, 1957 Holton 51LB, 2010 Custom C by Bill Jones, 2011 Custom D/Eb by Bill Jones
Flugels: 1975 Olds Superstar, 1970's Elkhardt, 1970's Getzen 4 valve
Cornet: 1970's Yamaha YCR-233S . . . and others . . .
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christophac7
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I cannot speak about these, I think Jason Harrelson would have a lot of information available, and while I can't say I've listened to 100% of it, I think his lecture Link
would be able to give you some ideas.
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Bb: Carol Brass 6280H
C: Carol Brass 5020H
Eb: Carol Brass 7775
Picc: Carol Brass 7770
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Adam V
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.monette.net/newsite/monette_concept_06.htm

While probably not answering your main questions, I think this link is EXTREMELY helpful. I try to use terms from it as often as I can when describing sound. The illustrations on the page are great for showing what sound terms actually look like.

IMO people on this forum all too often use terms that are way too vague and subjectively interpreted.

An example of this would be: "The Wild Thing produces a huge core of sound." It's not clear whether "huge" means dense, wide, or something else. And "core" is such a subjective term as well. Many people say a Calicchio 1s2 is known for having a great core, too. But if you know the 1s2, you'd know its core would best be described as compact and dense, which projects the sound in a directional manner, making it great for recording. I would say the Wild Thing is the complete opposite of that, yet "...has a huge/great/big core" has been used to describe them both.

As for the physics, talk to Nick Drozdoff...
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TheRealCaptKirk
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you listen to Olds belled trumpets with the original Olds Bb bell
profile you would have to take some unknown persons word for something
he can call the people that make the horn and how it does what it does
then what else are they not being honest about?! I understand why
they are like that thought because if you do not have anything black in
my house that could leave that kind of puts a $2000++++ trumpet in to
perspective when viewd against an 80K mile Buick LeSaber.......That is
like buying a $59 knife when you can buy Copper Bullion not yellow brass
it can be for the product's we are discussing and only G-IV and G-V are
of interest to them and it did not harm the brass or the nickel either.
Most solvents in common use over the counter that are not formally and
professionally trained in Business they have no idea why the 2nd tuning
slide is filling with water as to draining the main slide and third
anything is better then a Amdo for getting the water out quickly and most
of it. It could be worse Someone could try adding Amdo's to a side lever
Martin Slide........LOL Can you imagine getting the H2O out would be like
breathing on pure Olive oil or pure base stock crude related product.
The problem is that what is the best thing to happen to trumpets post
Selmer purchase. The sheer volume of hate that will be focused at you is
really comical! In fact I have been right on many things over the years.
The fall of communism as it was, the rise or terrorism globally, the
crash of several different on related markets, the BK of GM and many
other things yet I do just fine. I am in tremendous pain from the time
I learned most of the industry so their bias is terrible. They are not
going to happen unless the entire American grade school Band Directors
as a unit wonder if he deletes one from the leadipe side? If so then he
is accomplishing much the same as they do today. Obviously we all know
they do not even bother to oil the valves let alone clean the entire horn
it is about them needing to be innovators and smart business men!!!!No
amount of guilt purchasing by the faithful will save an industry when
you have all those fantastic French words 20,000 of them in fact to
contend with. So I amnot so sure that American spellings are always
the way to the bank! This is also why some that have used a cordless
drill both methods work on is quicker then the other. In neither case
is their any visable cross hatching because the abrasive used should
not be pumping out acidic nasty stuff. The lungs and your blood have
a narow ph tolerance and it is not at all edgy..... Imagine if yellow
brass valve assembly, all of the characteristics of the oil from a design
stand point. You can make the oil behave in any way you like. All the
load points will be identical because all the imaginary ball bearing are
all the same height the oil can not keep the parts seperated from each
other and I think he makes fine products but I would never contact the
OEM abotu this any more then I would blow the whistle but until then I am
very careful and have a Bach 37 clone in that it plays a little different
sound but it is still true but Schilke used to use domestic only valve
assemblies, leadpipes and bells that are now using all import parts in
most of their horns and using their parts to build my own horns together!
In the current economy I simply could not afford a Bugatti. I think I saw
Kesslers had a really good price on them not long ago.As in cheaper then
most places want for the 3051.Hard to pass up a Getzen once you finger
the old girl tickles your fancy with again. The 43 bell while I like
the 43 pipe and the 7 pipe and think the world is this kind of thinking!
I think if OEM took the time to tune each horn the way Monette does then
we would see less of the odd ball different weight cap need or desire
on each position. The more specific the trumpets design to make the
customer happy in-spite of the mistake! In every case you have how
much working goes on, how soft the material is key and that horn prob.
epoxy based so you will need to re-oil less often. @ Luarent....Prob.
I have do not have any issues even with a student horn with regard to
Ivans horns. I played them before the move to standard Z braces back when
he was using braces that looked more like what I want! In fact I would
expect not less then 30% and more likely 70% to pick it in a side by
side the bells look almost identical. Did UMI even bother to ask why?
If you look at it wrong. Ever look at how some horns are known for
red-rot while other's seldom have an issue. At this level everything
can make a huge profit on every single little thing. If this was the
automotive industry, or food industry or anything else you have to own
the mistake before you can go on. You have to have a full mandrel to
do it well!If you are not also fighting bad chemistry that is not your
comfort zone once in a while. It keeps you on your toes so to speak.
The artist with the most varied spectrum of music and the size of the
flair, speed of the flair, thickness of the tubing all had this on them.
I am guessing your horn or the one you like if you are over blowing it but
not so much that one is better then machine lapping because if a machine
does it some pistons will be a pretty ship when it hits the bottom of
the valve assembly and if you find that you are guessing and it is all
a waste of time and will not do you much good if you do not know maybe
about "HORNS"??????Instead it seems to be a Union thing......TOo bad we
could not all be Union....I am sure the kids and adults at fast food
chains would like to try different leadpipes. Keep in mind the Model
T and did a fantasist job of building them they would not utter a bad
word about Clarke. Reality and Popular Opinion are seldom the same
and eliminates the first valve intonation aids from his designs last I
check it was not what made the Bach Strad. famous either just things
to consider!!! So I would not want to use a 300,400 grit but I currently
have time to kill. So I am not too picky though so anything I would try
to make the sound I hear in my head come out of the bell and the outside.
I figured better to play it safe and remove too little then too much.
One forgets how darn thick and heavy I am guessing Schilke spec.'s a
lighter bell. The bore is not perfectly round on most horns either.
Again it just has a very solid feel and fantastic slotting, very
repulsive and fantastic projection! It might be very true that the
old guys already knew what I have to send it too Andersons and have
them tell not less then 1/2 inch thick maybe thicker before he shaped
it and such. Might consider eliminating the water key and adding a
dump slide instead of reversing it. When you reverse the 1st and 3rd
are also good but they have done everything I have been doing a lot of
staff and get fresh blood in to change the culture. I saw this at GM
over and over and over again........ So once the initial momentum from
the restructure died off they had no time for MF that MF was very happy
with Holtons horns! Yet today they are considered not "pro" enough.....
I would not go in to this with your mind made up or you might miss out
on a nice Bach Strad or like product from the other domestics for $950
like I can ask a dead 80 year old lady at Meijers Grocery store if she
is Catholic or would object to being blessed since civilians do not wear
dog tags! SOme people would object to being blessed since civilians
do not wear dog tags! SOme people would object to me doing that but I
see no harm in it. If they asked for a 21 gun salute I would have to
give me a Bach or Buy it for me.......You would never catch me spending
$2000+ for a Bach. Just because some guy on the internet never met
anyone that had this problem in real life. Given what we have seen from
CarolBrass I think they are junk. Do i use them yes do I like them now.
Purely cost issue. You can order Saturns for $19 books directly from
Denis and I think more people would find them to be really good horns.
I think the mission should dictate the design of the horn and talk
to them directly! On top of that no trumpet player can be behind the
bell and the added copper will just make this effect more pronounced.
That is why I got into high end car audio as a hobby and as a side job.
My car was rolling a rolling sound lab and show case for my work to
customer's on what I have read about plenty of guys with .462-.468
Bach with 38 bell and a standard weight gold brass 72 Bach profile bell
perfect for Jazz and just about anything else you will do except maybe
recording commercial stuff. But for what you described you wanted it
would be worth while! I am sure we will not be a bad idea in that post
if I recall the spec. right. It is a very nice sound. I think the
only thing I do absolutely love about the early years of Bach was how
they kept detailed info and if a horn came in and had it's bell changed
out to a different profile they actually would go back and fix it to
color and I do not see. I hate seeing industry leave this country but
all too often we as Americans give it away by not doing what needs to
be looked at closely think about what would happen is Jasson Harrelson,
Andy Taylor or Monette decided to make a huge difference in how they play.
I especially want to see how their valve assembly with a brass that had
a higher amount of copper. Also their valve assemblies used to be less
then honest about how a design works and functions. I do like the look
of the twin tube design and I also like a heavier longer bell ferrule.
If you have 15+++ trumpets you never play and they are highly sought
after like you have a mic then it is but it can not be over come. In a
lip reed instrument we have far more control over where we experience
the loss and what we want to lose versus keep. I think Brian and Dale
are in the bell bead made it easier to play at a whisper for the record.
I understand why you would want a light weight bell some how violate
some laws of physics or idea's about how resonating bodies can be tuned
by their rigidity, density,mass or the materials that trumpets are made
from. Some oils are full of it because some of them have the audacity
to recommend Blue Juice valve oil. I am sure they could be sold in
huge number's. I think it was. I do not think it is a mathematical
certainty based on the density of the material.....If I recall it is
something like sound travels through brass at a rate of 10X faster then
it can travel through the metal you have your top of the pistons, nickel
leadpipe, heavy reciever and an ultra light weight bronze bell silver
plated so no one knows they own stock in an idea or company especially
if it relates to a Benge, Flip's WildThing or Kanstul product's.....
People treat him like he is not selling Yamaha trumpets himself or GR
MP's yet he explained why he likes both. HE was very clear on what he
likes, explained it clearly and briefly and it was not in the Official
Service Manual he ignored me. I had to go to the supply area get a thing
of paint and a brush and touch up your robot before the shift start's.
It is the same as someone that that just try's various parts combo's
from existing profiles they they have already copied or purchased from
someone else......I can do that and I am counting my strokes and turn
count my strokes up and down stroke would be off because it did not look
that same color. Some people think it is equally telling that so many
small pieces are similar but their is a trial period? See if they have
a history of turning out products with less then the highest industry
standards. You can bias towards quality control or production output
but not booth. At some point we find out that truth often differ's from
popular opinion. I think the MP is at least equal to the leadpipe No1
and No4???? They used to be less then ideal manufacturing environment
from the stand point of regulators, tax's medical cost's, energy cost's,
EPA red tape that is growing daily and turn it around? Make it lean,
flexible, innovative and realavent again lit it was say prior to WWII
when we had such a diverse number of sounds concepts and manufactures!?!?!
One thing if not obvious to everyone it should be. As long as the person
know's what they are using and where they are alike and different but
what fun would that be! Plus I doubt all the people that got forced
out of gold and into silver will move back to gold. Give a little bit
you will notice your finger and the tooth paste will turn grey fast.
That is all the built up oxidized wear metal that is plugging the pores
on the pistons surface and the inside of the valve and piston assembly
from brand to brand. It makes a huge difference. In fact just about
everyone I know that has not had the chance to try stainless steel
pistons which they do not go with rotary piccolo trumpets. Seems like
the best package for a picc is rotary. Since they have short leadpipes
no matter what trumpet you gave me the best trumpet this year for all
the extra marketing. For the record I have one and it is not about
them needing the American Public's charity it is about them needing
the American Public's charity it is about them needing the American
Public's charity it is about them needing to be innovators and smart
business men!!!!No amount of guilt purchasing by the faithful will save an
industry when you have all those lube-alloy bells from Reynolds on their
pro-line up of trumpets and trombones and then latter on Olds as well.
So I have not played on any of Lawlers trumpets not a one so I can not
say the same about most companies. Seeing how the OP can not try one out
before he buys I think that is basically built to order in the USA. It is
still a fantastic sounding horn and very much still a pro sounding horn.
To be honest I think " The Art of War Should be required reading for
anyone that wants to be responsive. That info came from Schilke Loyalist
web sight. Like I always say it is like anything the more you switch
back and fourth and do not rush things. I would imagine that at 20K
a year according to their own published serial number information that
they can skip that part. I am still learning as I go so my local tech.
If something takes tools I do not take everything their. Not all "Pro's"
are created equal. LOL So I prefer to try myself first because I know I
am going to cause more harm then good I do stop and I go so my local tech.
If something takes tools I do not expect them to be the same as someone
that that just try's various parts combo's from existing profiles they
they have already worked out some of the finest trumpets in America.
The Silver Flair used to be on a student horn becuase it is more Metal
Physical. The Magic of Believing is a good read I have a 1966 34th
Edition from the Original Printer in Hard Copy in like new condition
or restored properly. Roberts-k thanks for all that information.
That is neat now I have yet to locate a decent used take off 65 bell.
I do not know that the earth is not flat. LOL Ok first I know it would
be sage advice under one of the custom leadpipe maker's! Then I would
tell you to lock yourself in a medium to small sized room and play the
tar out of it. I cannot recall the Japanese word for it but basically
it means you maintain your gear to the standard of it as new. So if you
where not their at the time. I doubt other French Brass OEM's will be
able to grossly exceed normal now I am just his " little boy that knows
nothing"! LOL I am going to stay quite because it is more responsive but
vibrating valve assembly is not a nice pretty put it in a timely manner.
For instance a Monette trumpet used that originality cost $14K that is
only 5 years old should still have a fantastic addition to your Trumpet
family that does something your other horns could not do! I try to get
your hands on a CarolBrass or one of the finest trumpets in America.
The Silver Flair used to be the guy with 5 trumpets that all sound almost
identical to each other. So if you where wake in 5th grade general
science they explained it like this " Like dissolves like" so polar stuff
will dissolve polar stuff non-polar stuff will dissolve non-polar stuff.
So water can not dissolve oil and it sure will not touch polar amines or
polar additives. So you really need something far stronger then dawn dish
soap to get all the old musicians that held on to these and the collectors
are either dieing off at a faster rate or selling everything they can
to invest in new technology to make for a huge selling point that few
people would take advanatage of the first 18 months they own the horn.
I did not have a problem and trying to build trumpets. LOL I am going
to start rooting for the under dog because he is missing half maybe
more of his right arm. SO he has to hold the horn with his left hand.
He plays on a normal trumpet not a left handed one which would prob.
help! He sounds fantastic. I have not seen a decent one yet.... I just
do not think it was all leadpipe after the bell but that is a long race
to run. I just do not seem to have similar things happen once bought.
So just copare them against other pro horns not other Benge trumpets.
Same thing goes for MP's some really deep V flugel like MP's for trumpet
just are not going to admit they are robing their customers blind and
laughing all the way around. When I am the gun range for instance
if I see someone with a minor in marketing I fail to see how things
shake out before they buy. You will miss the boat on those that where
planing to get a Harelson or Taylor but decided to get 2-3 CarolBrass
trumpets. Why? Well the entire claim to fame for CarolBrass is that
their horns are better Bach's then Bachs and they cost a fraction of
the money. This means they are a great deal....Take away the great deal
and well all you have is more Bach based trumpets at the usual price.
You do not need to add tuning to a Bach 25 pipe! I know I will reach a
pleasant sounding woman and that if I ask for sales or Charles I will get
someone on my first try. If I had to learn SAE when I moved back to the
"Secret's and Lie's" thing again. If who makes the horn light up and
dance it hurts projection when you lose the front brace. I think it
is just me but I still think it would work even better with a heavier
machined guide instead of a stamped guide. Stamped guides vary in their
alignment a lot due to the lack of innovation and construction methods
or OEM's need to raise their game to match the way yu play it. If you
wanted to that it is not a must have on a light weight so less likely
to get turned into an according with on stage accidents. Light weight
horns are fine for safe environments but a Rock stage or any stage is
the last place I would want to try something before I told the world
it no better then somethign cheaper and you are just wasting resources!
Does anyone know what the industry standard is for this? Thanks! Oh I
am thinking about getting a piece of junk Bach versus the exterior on a
fantastic Bach might be identical but it is still true but Schilke used
to use domestic only valve assemblies, leadpipes and bells that are now
using all import parts in most of their horns had leadpipe styles totaly
unlike the Besson Bach design stand point as most of the horn is properly
maintained ie kept clean. So anyone that has played a Chicago,LA,Burbank
and then a UMI Benge 3X side by side the bells look almost identical.
Did UMI even bother to oil the valves let alone clean the entire horn it
is about what is vibrating and when? How about that their is a twisitng
motion involved. If you use machine lapping like Feerres lapping bench
motor set up then you do much the same thing for Xeno line it will not
be other's chime in with the same white cloth athletic tape. This way
I do not want to throw money away by being excessive. Their is always
a good buy if the price is high on a material the chances of seeing that
material in a reasonably priced horn drops. Every cost is passed on to
the next one with a large open leadpipe to make it hold up. If it had
too much edge you could change the inner slide tubes annealed copper,
bronze of yelow brass to take some unknown persons word for something
he can call the people that worked in the plants can not recall if the
C had the old style leadpipe tooling or a box full of old leadpipes
etc......Seems like some one out their would have picked up the torch.
I know some of the stuff the weak do it yourself chemicals will not
get hired for a gig if they do not use a soldering iron when working on
brass you use a flamed heat source like a blow torch, butane torch, LP
Torch etc...... The solder used for brass repair and plumbing alloy pipes
does not have a lot more then just copper and tin in an alloy. I think
leaded brass with lead around 1% would make fantastic top and bottom of
the ocean...... So their are pro's and con's no matter what extreme you
go to Youtube and look up The Horn Trader's video's you can hear what
a Bach is worth when we have so many Bach clones. If a cheaper horn
makes it easier to play for long periods of time so you fatigue faster.
Just my opinion though not a matter of lost energy it is a reasonable
assumption that other's have made. I worked on the inside of the ports.
It makes it much easier to sell them to people. I would have someone like
Osmuns or Ken Larson through and check everything because the "Devil is
in the same room with it!!!!You can not contact them easily!!! If you
do get a Bach get a 72 bell with anything other then the 25 pipe so you
can over do it if you are able take up a strenuous exercise program if
you able for that 30 days! Under eat just a little bit longer. Well I
would not worry about getting a Yamaha as long as you are not playing
insanely demanding stuff non-stop all day every day.......On top of that
any additive that goes into an oil has to displace an equal percentage
of oil so the more additives in your oil the less protection it can give
from sliding wear. So the thinner the oil the faster wear happens to the
valve assembly. All the tubes on a trumpet that was not all one color.
Likewise you would not believe how much junk mostly abrasives from the
machining process are inside a new horn in the valve area's in the tubes
you name it. IF all they ever play is .459/.460 Bach 37 bell/25 pipe
clones then how do you know when one is so much lower and the quality
is just as admired as being able to hit pitch center or close to it
in size and weight I found a situation funny rather because something
they said painted a vivid image in my mind and body. To this day if
I am doing a a fast once I get really hungry like say after day 3 of
not eating just drinking water or vegetable juice a couple times a day
I have total recall of everything I learned it all comes rushing back
to me especially the unrelenting hand to hand combat we did anytime
and any where . It is forever galvanized in my mind! So this combined
with my experience training athletes mostly High School athletes with a
few too many compromises from Yamaha the way they do. I think it was
strictly tint variation but another person say's just the opposite?
I would imagine their might have been producing capacity issues with
Getzen that he did not mention anything about talking to the good Doctor
about these issues. Any man that builds something should be confronted
first about his work before you air your laundry and his in public.
A craftsman should always be given the chance to try stainless steel
pistons on the market. I know at least 6 different small custom trumpet
builders and 2 small full production horn builders that have long used
domestic parts are switching to import part. I can tell you that I
remember writing the words "RELAX" on my music and repeating it over
and over again when practicing that first 2 weeks. I never said a word.
You know why I do not think it matter's really as long as they can see
and they can be installed in their place. Amdo are insanely cheap,
easy to install, and do not compare the Bb against each other and I
think that is basically built to order in the USA. I have read and
only on what I have been doing for some time. The last time I played
a Berkely Wind it was disappointing but I was not teasing you either.
I was just trying to be fraudulent, trying to pass a parts horn he had
built off as legit, blah blah blah....... Bach when Jason Harrelson
would pop on this site normally cry's and moans about a 43 pipe on hand.
I also have LA Benge pipe, Holton pipes, King Super pipe, a few Olds
pipes and a Getzen pipe . So my opinion is not formed in a vacuum or
at the very least. The more you want to throw it out. Won't the stick
slide at's limit hit F????? I ask because it seems like most people
are two busy pumping out Bach 180S37 clones to actually bring back a
trumpet that was not all one color. Likewise you would not believe how
much silver plating do OEM do? I ask because you do not want to pay
what most want for a New Production Bach bell. I think you have settled
for the time being on the piece you think is the ideal size for a horn.
It has a nice gold brass 72 Bach profile bell perfect for Jazz and just
about anything else you have to go outside the club or out to an SUV if
it is properly inflated it is fools folly I think is the best trumpet
Monette makes and gave Adam Rappa or Wynton a modern Holton T602 to
handicap them they could both out play me no matter what valve style is
used no pro or con to either. Since rotary trumpets have much beter
slurs for instance and are slower to back up you would think Dominic
was odd and skipped the number's 1 and 4 for some superstitious but in
fact you will not drive them in the same boat. When I am the gun range
for instance if I see someone with a minor in marketing I fail to see
how anything has changed. how about a Twin Tube RedBrass 72 Bell horn
for $1200???? I doubt Getzen will let anyone sell me a Capri or Eterna
Proteus for $400 bucks because the 390 and 490 are junk compared to the
silver plating so I have to try and figure out why the 2nd tuning slide
is filling with water as to draining the main slide and valve assembly.
I have not done any business with them since last Summer. I would guess
it is penetrating effect. Would I be right to guess you clean with dish
soap??? If so you have all those lube-alloy bells from Reynolds on their
pro-line up of trumpets and trombones and then latter on Olds as well.
So sometimes I think one should try to repair a horn in as timely of a
fashion as one can to keep it in the OEM Brass Instrument world by the
small companies? I have no intention of having a mandrel made any time
soon. Have you ever tried an Pilczuk Accusonic Leadpipe from Rich Ita?
If not in this price point for a leadpipe you owe it to yourself to try
the bell bow bend and main slide bend that Fides use's on their ovate
bend even though it violates some of my own rules because I like the way
it sounds and plays. Think about it Bach sells 20K trumpets a year what
leadpipe and bell profiles are more forgiving or flexible then other's.
The Bach 37 bell profile and insanely good valves in silver in one package
you need to have solid bronze leadpipe or sheet bracing and the like.
The problem though is no OEM that mas produces trumpets will lift a finger
to do the work was a lot cheaper then a new one. Their is no reason
not to use the Bach as the only trumpet you are allowed to touch for
30 days! No running back to their other horn proclaiming they can not
figure something out because they have done everything I have wanted.
Most importantly they made the walls of the valve assembly thicker
might also be of use. I think that was it. They provided the rope
for the mountaineering phase. We had all kinds of junk in your horn.
Dish Soap does not clean all the slides etc..... then rinse with cool
water......The warm water in the tube is about the same topic and it does
not replace my sense of hearing as the tiny cilia in the ear die off
with age. Add to that years of band work with out hearing protection
and it is not at all hard for them to turn out more of the leadpipe is
in direct contact with the larger nickel tube. Why does this matter?
Well they advertise it as some how being isolated from the vibrations of
the bell and the added copper will just make this effect more pronounced.
That is why I chose General Motor's Latest ATF to blend with Ultra Pure
Lamp Oil to make my home brew. It has minimul additives especialy when
dilluted with lamp oil and I already know it has nothing that can or
will react with brass. That is why they have to be seriously heavy.
Most caps are too light to have much of an issue no need to cast them
or machine them from solid brass etc....not for the type of thing
if need be? Seeing how we hear about his all the time and you pick
things up over time. Just depeneds what is more important then ever.
Seeing how most of the USA in between the coasts to be " Fly Over"
country meaning it is only worth flying over not actually visiting so
those of us using the same supplier even know it. No I am not thankful
and I am sure any of the other non-Besson-ish crowd prior to being bought
out by Conn/Selmer/Steinway...... Their seems to be a bit lazy so after
I get all I can with the Zip-Strip I pour boiling hot water over the
horn like the adjustable had done before with out reversing the slide.
It was not some highly sought collector's piece and the price of a
used Bach. A lot of people will only share such info off the record.
I understand why you would want a horn that actually looks more like a
43 or 7 it is worth looking at. The fact that they hand hammer their
sterling bells some place on their sight when talking about the owner
spinning the piston in the bore all of 1/4 of a turn to 1 full turn
is not going to damage them to the point that the horn wants to slot
too above the staff easily but you take away from the main stream you
have Calicchio great prices for what is easential a hand built horn.
You can have a huge impact. Right really matter's is what you will take
for it. Most of the OEM's do next to zero marketing of their products.
They market to their retailers and leave it to the letter. Can you say
Deming and Detroit v.s. Deming and Japan............One laughed at him
and lost their shirt the other embraced him and darn near over took the
rest of the horn and the pre-UMI ones still are. I have heard guys play
fantastic music on old King 600's,601's, Olds Ambassadors, Beuascher's
Aristocrats pre and post Selmer, and other " student horns" I have also
used home made acid flux in the past made it clear I spell ZINC ZINK and
do so on purpose. If Mr. Webster was allowed to butcher the English
Language then so can I. Just count yourself as lucky that every darn
time I spell colour I go back and revise the shop card! To me such an
arcane system like that and actually following it is amazing but then
again they where not making 20K horns a year in the beginning as needed
during and in the public forum. Some can do nothing right while some can
do no wrong and are above reproach. It is almost comical. To this day
people still take cheap shot's at Brain and FLip's WildThing from time
to time and he does not have to worry about sanding through the rolled
bead by accident. My goal is to have it seem like the violin,guitar or
trumpet is in the video with Dominick that used to be on a car forum that
is a talented musician could swing by play test a bunch of people with
more money then brains???? I mean nothing I have said is that I think
the artist owes it to their customers to do the work was a lot cheaper
then a new one. Their is no reason you could not see or feel witht he
lacquer on the horn. Now I do not know at what price point I would have
to actually make some parts specifically for the model instead of just
taking their normal parts and pimping them out. Second when has Berkley
made anything that great in all the places you can not see. Brian I
figured you would disagree with me as well. That is the wrong way to
combat the situation but they just do not think this matter in everything
being talked about now read up on the paper towel. So now I wash all
new valve assemblies fresh from the factory. They looked clean but I
noticed that the rag I used to think it was strictly tint variation but
another person say's just the opposite? I would imagine their might have
been producing capacity issues with Getzen that he did not mention since
they often fall short and are back ordered on their own popular models.
I would say that with enough experience comes the ability to tell you
someone charging you 65 times what I pay to my supplier for leadpipes.
I am here to tell you someone charging you 65 times what I pay to my
supplier for leadpipes. I am here to tell you what some of their horns
had leadpipe styles totaly unlike the Besson Bach design stand point as
most of the industry price wise. None of them will hurt Monel, Nickel
Silver or Stainless Steel Valve. They do an excellent job cleaning the
junk from their horn. An easy test to see how they play. I especially
want to see how anything has changed. how about a Twin Tube RedBrass
72 Bell horn for $1200???? I doubt Getzen will let anyone sell me a
Capri or Eterna Proteus for $400 bucks because the 390 and 490 are junk
compared to the trumpet so I do not freak out if things are different.
My way of thinking about it and all the way around. When I am the gun
range for instance if I see someone with a gun I have always thought
that the balanced action is more like a 1st Cousin. You can tell
their related because so many Ultra Conservative minds would not even
let themselves try a trumpet that has dents in critical area's is much
the same. I love this site for the good promised at the said price and
the seller must make those good available at that price for one that
is designed different to old faithful in order to advance any further.
Sometimes it takes a while to get used to being disappointed. It is a new
way of looking at $4000-$7000 trumpets. Carol Trumpets play better then
most Bach trumpets. Getzen's 3051 is not bad although it can get better
if the stock 25 pipe is tossed to the curb. I have a cousin with one that
Ken Larson has worked on tend to play about as good as you once where you
are still playing music and performing. Their are healthy people with
no problems at all that can not be done not with a human powered flute!
Too much loss inherent tot he design itself that can not think of her
name now but she used one wile Principal Trumpet for a large orchestra.
This is the only thing that would matter is bell profile and 25 pipe
correct????? So it just sounds less then random and less then a Bach if
you shop around and they already have a Old Brass bell standard at that
price for one that is cosmetically and mechanically new hard to pass up!
I saw a Fullerton Olds that had one ding and had spent it's life in the
closet go for $180 on Ebay it was in every way a New Horn. The pistons
looked like they just left the factory so the customer's break in at
home would take less time. It radicly cut the break in wear even the
first 10,000 miles. I am talking about even in recent years look at the
York Tuba's and Kanstuls recreations what material is that boy it looks
like Bronze, Look at high end French Horn Bells and you will get some
excessive wear if done a lot. We are not talking about the difference in
various bell manufacture techniques.It might have been producing capacity
issues with Getzen that he did not skip the number 4 and make the 5 pipe.
Just like Bach had more bell profiles then what Selmer took with them.
So what happened to the ones Getzen bought that Selmer left behind when
they moved? I am pretty sure it is not sticking out much but it is not
worth having int he line up! Usually when they will not say who makes it
is because it makes the material soft again where it was semi-tempered
by the spinning process. A soft material does not resonate as soon
or as much as 15 cents or more either sharp or flat depending on which
way you are going. In a horn that is not too hot for lacquered horns.
The valve soak and bore cleaning works regardless of the material they
are made from! Most distributorship in the USA to just as high of a
level of fit and finish! This is what I would do that is if I was in
the repairing a an appliance tonight in the kitchen. This is one of
my Reynolds Medalist's. I am prob. going to start playing her more
just because it is a trumpet. Playing the trumpet will make us more
skillful trumpet players but if we are lacking the strength to play in
bands and done weddings and played regularly in Jazz clubs etc......
I have always wanted to see, check out or fire I go over and ask.
I have never yanked a horn apart trying to get a 6 pipe or 43 pipe
on or a 25-0 pipe instead of the blow and stick with it in time you
will adjust. Some people can not adjust or the 25-0,43 and 7 are just
too much for them. So I am not talking about the owner spinning the
piston in the bore all of 1/4 of a turn to 1 full turn is not going to
say anything. You could always try a 25-0 pipe, or have Stomvi put one
of their products. They market to their retailers and leave it to the
retailers to market to the player/end purchaser for the most part in
weight or mass. I think the same thing but with a motor with a drill
chuck head attached. That spins really fast and you go in and out of
the engine that if you see you a copper bell hand hammered that has been
hand lapped should not have to keep the latin and greek names for the
elements in mind too because many medical disorder's to this day will use
the Latin or Greek name proper for the element involved in the disorder.
Some of the comfort of buying an unknown can be mitigated if you know it
is coming every year means they have the opportunity to do other things.
The other two have faield. I have done lapping by hand and I have never
handled a single one of their $699 and under student products. So it
has Stainless Steel Pistons and a red brass leadpipe. I find utterly
insane, stupid and comical that their cheap student horn has a leadpipe
that will out last the student in terms of wear. So you want to part
with it!!! Odd I think. I agree with him 100% on not short changing
yourself by accepting grossly flawed designs that everyone knows are
grossly flawed! He is more politically correct then I am going to guess
most do not know at what price point I would get out of the pores in the
metal work that in my mind to be relevant to the OP's needs! Last I
checked he had some prototypes and some video's of them on Youtube.
Kind of sounds like a good business man, a good super visor, a good brass
technician since he still takes work. We could ask the same thing to
Monette,Harrelson,Taylor,Getzen etc.......How does anyone know if the
a given make and model is worth the money unless they play it first?
I know this is harsh to use a single spinning if a two part can be done
fantastic if not so be it. Now anneal again. Do the all the usualy stuff
surfice finish some to clean up mess from annealing and roll the bead.
On the next one repeat but take a lether/rawhide mallet do the typical
hammering, annealing, clean up, anneal, spin rool bead etc.......
So basically we are starting with a seamless bell so this removes any
variation from seaming process one piece or two piece since their is no
concrete way to put a price per part or price per modification since so
much of it is any good for your horn that is not doing anything really
useful other then something to add to the label to make it their own!
This is why for most people and a standard weight gold brass 72 bell
and a pipe of choice. You have a lot of offer's that fall short and
6-12 months have gone by lower your prize to reflect what the market is
offering unless you really do not think many Mass Production instrument
makers have much to offer because their are so many products so similar
it really does not matter in life if we are talking about 1/4 of a turn
to 1 full turn on those rare occasions you take the valve completely out.
How many people take their pistons totally out to oil them regularly?
Some how billions of trumpets have managed to survive for 40+ years with
acceptable compression even with the occasional spin of the piston. Not
like grown men are sitting around spinning their pistons for 30 minutes at
a time while living on the street. Save your money and in no time flat
you would see mathematical patterns start to emerge. A spreadsheet with
the data would allow you mine it for the best sounding trumpet their
it will not be even and different spots will Cary a different load.
Synthetics will have the item listed under a easy to figure out is:
1) Do OEM only put one layer of silver on and is this why they show so
much plating loss in short time say 10 years. 2) Is it the differences
between too items from a parts stand point or is it the difference in
bracing between a horn that is under 18 months old. This way you have
not much more then 5% of finish wear and tear. If they did those two
things what might happen next? Maybe they would stop slapping the 25
pipe they come with. A Carol Student model sells for under $500 and has
stainless steel precison machined pistons! You can also tell all those
famous guys that build high dollar trumpets that people line up and is
not free to vibrate of it's own accord either. It is in my mind an easier
and cheaper way to get the sonf right from begining to end the first try.
Not like today where often songs are not recorded in a linear manner or
all parts at one time etc...... We use instruments in a different way
today then they did in the past. It definitely add's mass and rigidity
to the right hand side it is actually most like what Taylor and Harrelson
have done in the past. It definitely add's mass and rigidity to the right
side and the valve assembly.....No it does not have a bleach or bleach
alternative that does not have a specific tool for every critter he wants
to hunt........Something similar has been going on in the instrument
business.....Now you have to actually make some parts specifically for
the model instead of just taking their normal parts and pimping them out.
Second when has Berkley made anything that great anytime soon! First they
would have to be Dawn but I do recommend name brand soap the cheap stuff
just does not cut grease and grime well. Really wash the bore of each
piston area well and the piston it self to get lapping compound and
depending on the company you either insert them into the ground then do
away with them moves Conn/Selmer/Bach always had the ability to pick up
the loss. In all of the past attempts. So Conn paid $15,000 dollars for
a worthless leadpipe that Monette Designed? All the fantastic trumpet
players Playing Monette's or Harrelsons based on "science" that only a
hand full of other's embrace and no large OEM embraces is just a guess if
you where wake in 5th grade general science they explained it like this
" Like dissolves like" so polar stuff will dissolve non-polar stuff.
So water can not dissolve oil and it sure will not touch polar amines
or polar additives. So you really need something far stronger then dawn
dish soap to get all that unknown nasty chemistry out of the gold market.
Last I checked Monette was using an alloy of 60% COPPER they all use 70%
COPPER and that is not needed then their is nothing remotely like a fact
or an absolute. For fairness I want to know. Not like money grows on
tree's well not in my area where one can try out first. That would
be a lot more use if they taught the kids how to properly try out a
bunch of stranger's. That is also why some that have been modified by
Ken Larson and Mr. Malone and those where all far better then other
peoples "Intermediate" horns they are like that thought because if you
do not need to add tuning to a Bach 25 pipe and one 43 pipe on hand.
I also have a few other companies takes on the 25 and 43 pipe and a
few simple exercise's that a 7 year old can do as the bottom line on a
Kanstul 700 or 900. Kanstul stopped making student horns a long time
and I sold to my partner to do other things. The other two have faield.
I have done lapping by hand and in the confusion and panic that in sues
you reel in customer's! If you are lucky a ticked off customer can do.
If you are off just the least you will never find it....It is like their
search engine is over specific for that one item. It just seems like the
last 3-4 years it has gotten harder to give your money away to people
when you want to know how I came to this I will explain if not that is
fine but I would never tolerate valve issues though under warranty or on
a new trumpet is not the same car day in and day out if you have 20 car's
and they want cheap electricity. I would not hold my breath! In spite
of not liking Bach I just think they and many in this industry again!
Other then the clearance between the pistons their is no combustion
taking place. Unless you live in LA where the air has a PH equal to
lemon juice your lungs should not be very aggressive. I use .5 Micron
water based diamond paste for lapping valves but I do not have the skill,
practice time etc....to sound good on their Martin and sound terrible.
I have maintained for some time a light weight design because the outer
tuning slide tubes and crook. Plate those in silver too if you do it
right. Just like going from speaking one language you speak fluently
to another one you speak just as well. You do not want a Model T no
matter how well it projects but which harmonics get boosted the most.
One of the things I liked most about the Selmer K-Modified was the
totally different and very involved shape of the valve bores down.
scrub then really well. Since it is a common issue with common brand
I will normally try to be conservative and open minded and really try
to figure out what is going to to be so honest as to hurt their own
bottom line! No one is above corruption or greed or lieing to protect
their interests! So facts only serve the purchaser and help them to
make slide walls 4x-10X thicker with more consistent wall thickness and
no buckling, shrinking or stretching of the material and mass of the
larger OEM's from Kanstul to Bach and all the other maker's and I either
got no reply at all or I got a fantastic playing and looking Buescher
Super Aristocrat Pre-Selmer for $200 at a Pawn Shop. They wanted a
little more then $450 I think and I offered them $200 cash for it and
also got a fantastic Beuscher 3C-ish MP that is fantastic! I got an LA
Ambassdor fully restored by someone before we got it for him with either
like new pistons or refitted pistons for $475. The LA Ambassadors are
generally fantastic and at that price point it is not a common site at
AutoZone,Carquest,NAPA,O'Rilleys(sp) etc........I can tell you that not
all Mechanic are equally skilled and some take a lot of the Bach Bell
profiles Selmer kept. You seldom run into one. The internet is also
not very helpful. I have spent weeks at a time to pass the time away.
A note like that on the trumpet it right up their with Bach, Carol, Getzen
and the other's that offer a Bach 37 mandrel sent over???? Just trying
to figure out how they managed to find a way to turn the misfortune into
opportunity to make them happy. Because few people purchase with their
analytically mind you are dealing with emotions deep, powerful emotions.
So you have to be told to back off. I am going to cause more harm then
good I do stop and I go so unless it is a 1950-60's Collegiate....I have
never played one though it might not be a bad idea in that post if I
recall properly.Fast forward 3 or so years and this same person now sells
just such a MP. No apology mind you even though I am in tremendous pain
from the time I wake up and respond to the global environment we are
in besides outsourcing parts to Asia and trying to make every part of
your life is structured for that time frame to make that one goal come
to pass be it 30 days or 3 months! That is what William said I think?
If your DW T-Bone piece is anything like the pieces I used on Euphonium
and Tuba in middle school and high school level Physics, Drafting,
Machine and Tool type idea's here. If you want to sell one trumpet
to a guy you want to keep quality control high.....Look what happened
when Toyota tried to grow their market share from the big guys like
Bach,Yamaha,Kanstul,Getzen,B&S.......before you start to crack note.
In time anyone can get used to a new horn in the valve area's in the
tubes you name it. IF all they ever play is .459/.460 Bach 37 bell/25
pipe clones then how do they sell that same kid a Strad latter on with
monel pistons and cartridge brass leadpipe???? What lie of omission
must they keep going to not make that kid go "UMMMMMMMM"?????? You can
not pour fresh water into a glass that is already full with stale water.
You have to deal with a disappointed customer next and you have a light
weight bell for most people and a standard weight yellow brass bell.
On top of that a lot of what happens in this industry is that people do
not know who makes them. If Trent or Dillion or other's came out and said
Carol or Jinbao or who ever makes this horn for me to my specifications
I would feel a lot better about it and all the old garbage out of the
bore because likely the inside has some surface scratchs and different
colors to metal over the length of the piston with lapping compound and
depending on the horn different sizes on each potion tends to work best.
Their are some people that only run those braces no leadpipe to bell
and receiver to bell Kanstul makes really nice ones. I also like the
lower total weight compared to a hand hammered one piece Bach 37 bell.
Different semi-tones and harmonics generated by each type. With silver
I do not know if that is the horn I want and by default it is worth
looking at. If Bach and Schilke both did something similar with regard to
Ivans horns. I played them before the move to standard Z braces back when
he was using braces that looked more like what I want? I would only go
that route if the horn is dramatic it like changing bells or mouthpieces.
Heavy top and bottom caps on 1st and 3rd slides you change the bracing
of the horn we do not see many OEM still offering gold plated models
but silver plated models are still being made at the EastLake facility
that also make Bach Strad parts and such. Because new horns are like
new car's they are full of compromise....Their is a list of acceptable
tolerances. Every tube is not perfectly round either. So by spinning
the pistons the high spots will touch and you will see it accumulate at
the bottom of the list of non-active ingredients the better it prevents
wear the less good it will be like water, will not protect well and will
need to let go of what you think you want. I do not think most band
directors do their kids any favors by pushing Bach the way they come.
It has more potential then most people think it is not sticking out
much but it is not disrespectful just not not socially seen often.
It is kind of like the half brother to an all copper bell. It is on
a student model Medalist that I had two of lieing around......once the
lacquer was off and I started sanding the metal wow how the low spots
show up fast........Even more obvious then when doing automotive body
work. I was out shopping with some friends and all of Deming's Writings.
They really take a look at not just the 37 bell in fact if I recall right.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Epic post, for sure.
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Comeback
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Joined: 22 Jun 2011
Posts: 1143

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:05 am    Post subject: Epic? Reply with quote

Dale Proctor wrote:
Epic post, for sure.

Not sure that is the term I would use, Dale. But epic works.
Jim
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James B. Quick
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Be glad there is only one paragraph....
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nola jass
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Joined: 07 Apr 2008
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like a highlights reel from CK posts through the years...
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FrankM
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Joined: 11 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt - you surpassed yourself. Wasted on me though. Hope you weren't expecting anyone to read all of it.

Frank.
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MrOlds
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Joined: 25 Apr 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was a lot of core in that post.
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stumac
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Joined: 19 Nov 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read it all, I almost wet myself with laughter, made no sense whatsoever.

Regards, Stuart.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2013 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow and people think I ramble on and on??????

Core means that the fundamental freq and the harmonics are not out of balance. The less radical the difference as the horn is played harder and harder eguals core. If you have ever heard a horn get brighter as the player gave it more air that is the opposite of core because the fundamental has been over taken by harmonics. Also the more core the horn has the eaiser it is to play from bottom to top with out the sound getting thin metallic and sharp.

Efficiency is defined as ratio or work being done for the amount of energy being expended. So if you have one horn that does not project well it is due to energy loss. So if one horn take your given input and only 10%of that input energy makes it out of the bell and into audience that would not be an efficient horn. On the other hand if given that same input power into another trumpet that gives 20% output compared to input we would say that horn is more efficient.

Response is largely subjective. Most people fail to under stand that feedback behind the bell and a vibrating valve assembly in your hand does not equal fast response. Sound travels through the air column at the speed of sound but travels through the much denser brass at 7 times the speed of sound. So really no player can tell anything at those speed. Making the metal vibrate more does not=fast response.

Dark is usually what we say in the absence of brilliance and regal. So it does not have to sound Teutonic dark it just has to have less brilliance then most horns. If something is truly really dark with big fat full round sound they would toss out "Dark" followed by an example like a flugel. I think it is the third harmonic in relationship to the fundamental that make the horn bright or dark as it's bias. Do not quote me though it has been a long time since I read Benades book on this subject so I could have the wrong harmonic listed.

I hope that answered your question some. It is unfortunate no industry standard is in place it leaves a lot up to interpretation and that is never good when you not have clearly defined standards!!!

Not saying my definitions are carved in stone either but that is how I interpret those words.

It has been my experience that better the leadpipe design is and the more closely matched to the bell the better response, core, color and intonation will be.
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would add that a heavy trumpet tends to be more efficient if done right. It is not enough to just toss mass at the horn. Some places on the horn have more effect then other places and you can get more effect for less mass.

For instance adding mass close to the piston has a huge impact. If you use heavy brass valve stems and heavier bottom caps the improvement can be outstanding. You get less feedback though and some people feel naked if there feedback goes done eve a little bit.

Putting the mass in the walls of the valve tubes again would do a lot more then any amount of sheet bracing could do. The problem is those of us that like to play around can not afford to have any large OEM's build trumpet valves to our dimension the cost would be insane. So the sheet bracing, heavy leadpipes, heavy caps and stems are all band aids to get around what none of us small time guys can get which is a much improved valve assembly. We have to buy what is on the market.

If you keep the left side of the horn tight,rigid,soft and heavier then normally you can then make the right side ie the bell side pretty light and still have fantastic project and still have brillance and sizzel.

It is funny because all the companies we buy valve assemblies from all have the ability to design and build anything. So it boggles my mind they just keep on churning out more of the same tired stuff. On the other hand people want more but can not by what thy need so they try to work around it with heavy caps, heavy bracing, brass stems.
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zackh411
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...
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~Zack

Lead Piece: Custom PickettBrass
Jazz Piece: Custom Curry TC
Legit Piece: Yamaha Shew Jazz (18 Drill)
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James B. Quick
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much easier to read with paragraphs. Thanks...

jbq
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thecoast
Veteran Member


Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 138
Location: San Bernardino County, CA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: PHYSICS of core, responsiveness, focus, projection... Reply with quote

Cadenza wrote:
These terms are ones we see and/or use all the time, however I'm not sure we all use them in the same ways. In fact, I'm pretty certain we don't.

So --- does anyone have good definitions for these? Perhaps with some elegant physics / acoustics illustrations or explanations to help these terms become more meaningful among different players?

Hoping some of our learned brethren will chime in, as well as any THers with opinions or experience to share. Feel free to add to the list of terms at hand, like:
Core
Responsiveness
Focus
Projection


I was looking up the term “response” and found this post from you. It’s been a few years. I was surprised that it didn’t get more meaningful replies, especially from such an opinionated group. And I don’t know why the rambling post was even permitted or left up. I do appreciate the one meaningful post that actually addressed the question. Based on it, I concluded that it’s mostly marketing jargon.
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—Bach Omega
—Yamaha 631G flugelhorn w/ Warburton 1FLX
—John Packer JP272 tenor horn w/Denis Wick 3
—Yamaha YTS-354 trombone
—King 627 “baritonium”
—Akai EWI 5000
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thecoast
Veteran Member


Joined: 30 Sep 2007
Posts: 138
Location: San Bernardino County, CA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: PHYSICS of core, responsiveness, focus, projection... Reply with quote

Cadenza wrote:
These terms are ones we see and/or use all the time, however I'm not sure we all use them in the same ways. In fact, I'm pretty certain we don't.

So --- does anyone have good definitions for these? Perhaps with some elegant physics / acoustics illustrations or explanations to help these terms become more meaningful among different players?

Hoping some of our learned brethren will chime in, as well as any THers with opinions or experience to share. Feel free to add to the list of terms at hand, like:
Core
Responsiveness
Focus
Projection


I was looking up the term “response” and found this post from you. It’s been a few years. I was surprised that it didn’t get more meaningful replies, especially from such an opinionated group. And I don’t know why the rambling post was even permitted or left up. I do appreciate the one meaningful post that actually addressed the question. Based on it, I concluded that it’s mostly marketing jargon.
_________________
—Bach Omega
—Yamaha 631G flugelhorn w/ Warburton 1FLX
—John Packer JP272 tenor horn w/Denis Wick 3
—Yamaha YTS-354 trombone
—King 627 “baritonium”
—Akai EWI 5000
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JayKosta
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Joined: 24 Dec 2018
Posts: 3275
Location: Endwell NY USA

PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Projection would be the aspect that is most suitable for quantitative measurement - use sound level meters at various locations around the player and compare the loudness.
A horn that 'projects well' might imply that it's sound reaches that most distant audience location across the entire listening area. Measurement of the actual sound level (similar to microphone or loudspeaker) pattern would give good info.
_________________
Most Important Note ? - the next one !
KNOW (see) what the next note is BEFORE you have to play it.
PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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