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PHYSICS of core, responsiveness, focus, projection...


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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me:
Responsiveness= how the horn responds to you.
Focus= where it is in the sound spectrum, from lazer-like compactness to a broad presence. Can include bright to dark.
Projection= how much presence a sound has and how well it carries.
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thecoast
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
For me:
Responsiveness= how the horn responds to you.
Focus= where it is in the sound spectrum, from lazer-like compactness to a broad presence. Can include bright to dark.
Projection= how much presence a sound has and how well it carries.


Let me preface by saying that my questions may not be perfectly phrased (if they might come across wrong, please, ignore how they feel to you), but they are sincerely curious.

1--How do you measure how a horn responds to you? What is the criteria (how well) for responsiveness? Is it, as a previous poster said, subjective? And if it is subjective, then how can one say that a horn is more or less responsive based on design?
2--Is focus (based on the definition) equivalent to presence?
3--What is presence? How do you measure projection?
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OldSchoolEuph
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thecoast wrote:
kehaulani wrote:
For me:
Responsiveness= how the horn responds to you.
Focus= where it is in the sound spectrum, from lazer-like compactness to a broad presence. Can include bright to dark.
Projection= how much presence a sound has and how well it carries.


Let me preface by saying that my questions may not be perfectly phrased (if they might come across wrong, please, ignore how they feel to you), but they are sincerely curious.

1--How do you measure how a horn responds to you? What is the criteria (how well) for responsiveness? Is it, as a previous poster said, subjective? And if it is subjective, then how can one say that a horn is more or less responsive based on design?
2--Is focus (based on the definition) equivalent to presence?
3--What is presence? How do you measure projection?


If you want objective, quantified engineering data,
1: This is a matter of energy or effort, so correlating indicators would be blood pressure, muscle tension, skin temp and moisture content, and intensity of the external vibration of the mouthpiece while comparing identical passages on different horns, that register identical sound pressure at a given distance, with matched ambient atmospheric conditions. All of this would require serious instrumentation to measure of course.
2: This could be be measured by mapping the amplitudes of all of the subdivisions one might define of the frequency spectrum, in a 3-dimensional grid in space in front of and around the bell. Its a multi-dimensional quantification though, so graphical representation of data would require some good interface design. Energy input and ambient conditions test to test would have to be kept identical of course.
3: Presence is dominance at a given location relative to other sounds. Projection is how far out that presence continues. Presence would require mapping the spectral signature of the tone produced, as it is produced, and determining its relative strength at a given location versus other sounds. Projection can be quantitatively measured with the same array as 2 above, limited to the dimensions of volume and location.

Or, if you don't have a small fortune to spend on equipment and the skill set to develop testing and analysis software, you just have to spend enough time playing and listening to develop this understanding as a player and an audience subjectively rather than objectively.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Likewise, nothing personal, but I'm just not going to spend time micro-analysing something that's likely to have too arbitrary opinions when all is said and done.

After being in musical direction and private teaching for a half century, as well as working on the national board of the Ford Foundation/Contemporary Music Project that tried to make objective "fact" out of inherently subjective material, I've come to the conclusion that looking for a universal definition of some things that apply in all cases, everywhere, was an exercise in futility.

It just saves a lot of grief and is much more time-effective to just come to a common vocabulary with the person or group you're communicating with and go from there.

Tired of quibbling and just want to get along with the music. At least that's my take on it.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
...
It just saves a lot of grief and is much more time-effective to just come to a common vocabulary with the person or group you're communicating with and go from there. ...

---------------------------------------
And it helps to have competent listeners who can articulate their views.
The 2 big issues boil-down to -
1) Does it sound good?
2) Is the loudness pleasing?
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thecoast
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
Likewise, nothing personal, but I'm just not going to spend time micro-analysing something that's likely to have too arbitrary opinions when all is said and done.[...]
Then you turn around and say:
kehaulani wrote:
It just saves a lot of grief and is much more time-effective to just come to a common vocabulary with the person or group you're communicating with and go from there.


And that's exactly the point of the original poster: What does the vocabulary mean? And how, exactly, is it time-effective to come to a common vocabulary if you don't know to some degree of precision what the vocabulary actually means? 🤔

I've suspected for a long time that the "vocabulary" originates from two very different sources: 1. marketing (which is the seller's art of saying what the buyer wants to hear, and is not OK), and 2. individual attempts to describe subjective experience metaphorically (which is OK). But when one wants to explain objectively to another, say for instance, what responsiveness in an instrument is, you gotta have more than metaphor, especially when one employs the language of quantification (e.g.: more, better).
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thecoast wrote:
But when one wants to explain objectively to another . . you gotta have more than metaphor,

I will never forget when, early in my conducting career, I was explaining what I wanted by waxing poetically, in exotic imagery, full of myself when the First Trumpet said, "You mean you want it louder", LOL.

Never forgot that .
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Jon Arnold
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Last edited by Jon Arnold on Tue Sep 21, 2021 5:03 pm; edited 4 times in total
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TrptSTP
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel old. There are people on here that don't remember the days with the good Capt.
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kehaulani
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When referring to Time, what's the opposite of Warp Factor Ten?
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Divitt Trumpets
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2021 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.hornguys.com/collections/scholarly-books-by-r-dale-olson/products/sensory-evaluation-of-brass-musical-instruments-by-r-dale-olson

Capt Kirk could write, but Dale Olson actually wrote a great book on it that comes in at 338 pages!
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kehaulani wrote:
When referring to Time, what's the opposite of Warp Factor Ten?


Oh yes. And where did they place the beam button?? Anyone??
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shofarguy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Capt. may have thought differently than many of us, but at least he thought about things, which was more than many who just spewed venom and vitriol over what he wrote. Just saying.

I have not read Dale Olsen's book, but I've met him and spent some time with him at the Kanstul factory after Zig's death. A very nice man with wonderful memories of those early years with Zig and friends from Olds. But I have met others who don't agree with his findings and point of view. So, I think there will always be discrepancy when it comes to terms, phrases and meanings.

And, gee, Byron Autrey once commented to me, over the phone, that, "People hear things differently." What to do, then.

I try to use my words precisely and accurately when I post something. I ask loads of questions before I write an interview or report. Sometimes, I get great answers. Other times, the person I'm interviewing doesn't have "great words." I find no connection between skill or talent, as a musician, and skill or talent in verbal communication.

Maybe that's why Dale Olsen took over 300 pages to describe acoustics in his book? It takes a lot of words to set up a context and define terms.

Here are my suggestions for the OP's terms in question:

Core - The strength of the fundamental tone frequency in the overtone series of a given horn. This fundamental and the ascending overtones in each note have individual strength relative to each other. Envision a graphic equalizer. To my ear, for instance, the classic Bach 37 sound has a strong fundamental, less midrange overtones, then strong highs. In contrast, Benge horns tend to have stronger midrange overtones with less fundamental. So, we say the Bach has more core than the Benge.

Responsiveness - How easily and quickly the player feels the instrument begin a note and then change from one note to the next, particularly from one partial to another. There is also the capacity of the instrument to respond to the increase or decrease in the player's input of energy and represent that without losing resonance beyond what the player is asking. Simply, the horn plays "intuitively."

Focus - This and the following "Projection" are terms that often get used interchangeably, but I think it's helpful to separate their definitions. Focus, as I've come to understand its use, has to do with the spread pattern of sound as it travels from the bell. I've used the phrase "Projection Pattern" to describe this. Commercial lead horns are very focussed and almost laser like. The way to tell is to walk from the center of the player's aim to the side and listen for where the sound drops off. Back when I first knew Flip Oakes, we tested a Celebration against a Wild Thing. The Celebration produced about 90 degrees of full sound (45 degrees off center) while the WT produce about 160 degrees of good solid resonant sound.

The issue with this definition is that others have used the term to refer to "diffusion" of sound, or the dilution of sound energy. I found, as I began publishing posts and articles about the Wild Thing in particular, that many posters had in their minds that there is a direct relationship between the width of projection and the density of sound and its ability to travel over distance. While I think that there is this relationship, I found it necessary to use language that separated the two elements, because the Wild Thing maintains a very high level of strength and density despite its pattern of projection.

Projection - To me, this term describes the width of the sound pattern and how effectively the full sound travels away from the horn. Using the same player in the same space, differing horns project differently. Each horn will throw its full sound to a certain distance, then begin to lose certain frequency ranges as the sound gets further away. One player may get more projection from a certain instrument than another player, but I'm not including that application of the term here.
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JayKosta
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seymor B Fudd wrote:

Oh yes. And where did they place the beam button?? Anyone??

-------------------------
Somewhere that is well shielded from 'stellar photon energy' interference.
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PLAY the next note 'on time' and 'in rhythm'.
Oh ya, watch the conductor - they set what is 'on time'.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m pretty sure that I read all of post that capt kirk put on here back in the day. It was wild sometimes, but he did get a lot of stuff right. And was unapologetically himself, and pretty much never had any mean words for other people (corporations not being people)

Shofar, it seems that a spectrum analyzer should be able to quantify this stuff. I’ve messed with it a bit recording and using FFT plots etc. It wasn’t super conclusive so I bailed on it…. Should do it again
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JetJaguar
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was practicing the opening fanfare to The Seahawk film music, trying to play it at 120, on an Olds Studio. Then I picked up the Super Recording, and my capability went up 5 bpm. I'm going to call that responsiveness, no matter what anyone says.
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Seymor B Fudd
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I in my more serious moments also fancy the concepts of core, projection and responsiveness I am really happy that Shofarguy provided clear and precice definitions. Thanks!

So my old King has more of a core than my new Yammie RC, but is less responsive (which is the reason why I bought the RC). In itself the King has a softer (less overtones?!)sound but if I step on the gas it sure beams soundwaves across the band in a focused way. To a somerwhat bigger "cost" than the RC. Projection? Yes full sound reaching the audience whereas the RC though reaching out easily probably sounds more bright to the audience.

I could think of more variables. Such as Timbre/Open/Closed/:
The RC more open the King more "closed" (but opens up if I) step on)
Tonespectrum: rich/meager etc. The King more "dense", the RC less.
I plaýed an almost new a Bach 190 Commercial during a year; finding that the air I managed to produce went straight through, that I just couldn´t place the tones above A in a safe way, completely unable above high C
Never ever had that problem with the King and absolutely not with the RC.
Could be related to me or to the horn/mpc??? And yes I know, the gap.
Sigh!
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