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The Mystery of the 6 notes


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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:15 am    Post subject: interesting Reply with quote

There is no real mystery connected to the 6 notes.......
As an interesting aside, when Carmine was faced with students who did not respond to his approach, and there were such students, he sent them to a man named Bobby Woodland. Bobby was a student of Frank Vennesia, in NY who was a Schlossberg student. Bobby stressed bringing the flat chin, forward...he stressed a forceful, aggressive air stream..slurring harmonics throughout the horn, listening for the "clicks" from shelf to shelf...clean clear attacks, and getting the excess meat out of the mouthpiece..with a slight "ski" in the facial structure..or like a rabbit sniffing something..ala Clark Terry and Claude Gordon..who played with that squint..corners into eye teeth and slightly raised cheeks..
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hoping this doesn't sound like heresy, but I never thought there was a mystery to the six notes. That was just the exercise that got you indoctrinated into the basic method and rules. For young students, whose faces had never been challenged, this exercise was quite a shock and brought about a "magical" improvement but for a serious player, it was just a meaningful beginning.

I am amused at those who sum up Carmine's body of work in other threads as consisting solely of the six notes. Truthfully, the six notes and the intervals were just the primary step in an individualized method that included lip and mouthpiece buzzing, note bending, scales from double pedals to double highs, flute and clarinet studies, and much more.

Those of us who have done lots of teaching recognize the inability to reach absolutely every student. Dedication, communication skills, and impatience sometimes get in the way. Like Carmine's analogy of learning to ride a bike, you can't script a schedule for learning.. You can create a timeline for applying progressive challenges but the body will adapt when it's ready and that timing is unique for each individual. I don't question that some students didn't take to the method, but it's not something that I ever witnessed in Carmine's studio or in mine.

Alan
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gstump
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mcgovnor said "There is no real mystery connected to the 6 notes......."

The "mystery" was where to place the breath attack, nothing more, nothing less. I am the OP and wanted to get your attention which obviously I did.

-Peace


Last edited by gstump on Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:41 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:02 pm    Post subject: Re: interesting Reply with quote

mcgovnor wrote:
There is no real mystery connected to the 6 notes.......
As an interesting aside, when Carmine was faced with students who did not respond to his approach, and there were such students, he sent them to a man named Bobby Woodland. Bobby was a student of Frank Vennesia, in NY who was a Schlossberg student. Bobby stressed bringing the flat chin, forward...he stressed a forceful, aggressive air stream..slurring harmonics throughout the horn, listening for the "clicks" from shelf to shelf...clean clear attacks, and getting the excess meat out of the mouthpiece..with a slight "ski" in the facial structure..or like a rabbit sniffing something..ala Clark Terry and Claude Gordon..who played with that squint..corners into eye teeth and slightly raised cheeks..


Its not really clear what a slight "ski" means but further description sounds a little like what Leon Merian taught. He would sneer just before he placed the mouthpiece and then let the sneer go. This would tend to get excess meat out of the piece and bunch up meat and muscle just outside the piece. A sneer will effect the muscles up to the eyes. Leon's approach to air was nothing if not aggressive.

That there were students for which CC's approach didn't work is not surprising. If you have the time and the inclination you could scan through trumpet herald and, for every pair of systems/tachers there is a player with the story that "<system A> was a waste for me, <teacher B> on the other hand is just what I needed".
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pepperdean wrote:
I don't question that some students didn't take to the method, but it's not something that I ever witnessed in Carmine's studio or in mine.
Alan

I'm sure there were many who only took one or two lessons and probably many who just wouldn't follow Carmine's instructions, especially regarding using all the pressure you want. And other things like disregarding intonation, tone quality and generally anything usually thought of as "musical." But I also never witnessed a student fail to improve who followed Carmine's 4 rules and stuck with it for at least six months.
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The mystery for me has always been how to play a breath attack when you're already playing a note.
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TrpPro wrote:
The mystery for me has always been how to play a breath attack when you're already playing a note.


Was wondering that myself. Do you close the lips then do the breath attack?

Kent
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TrpPro
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that option is out because you would then be interrupting the blow.
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mcgovnor
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:52 pm    Post subject: Actually Reply with quote

I used to sit in Carmine's Studio all day long in 1970. He would let me hang out, as the busiest guys in town would come in and try to play the exercises. It was pretty funny, even to me, a 17 year old, searching. If the question was where the breath attack was, it is exactly that..a question. Having said that, there are many who believe there is something..as the headings used to imply.."magical" about the 6 notes. There is NOT. Anything done chromatically, from long tones to flexibility studies to Orchestral excerpts to be bop lines..is of great benefit to trumpet players. As we learn how much movement is NOT necessary, and how our goal is to play a much smaller window through chromatic movement, it is practical, not magical. Carmine used to alter the breath attack, as did Bobby, and at times, all notes were breath attacks. This was always the best first start, for me. Perhaps it will be for someone else, as well.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Was wondering that myself. Do you close the lips then do the breath attack?"

Now that's a mystery!
In my case, the tongue flicks the airstream for a connected ta on the second note and then instead of ta I "say" ha. Years ago when I was doing shows and sessions I would let up on the airstream ever so slightly before the breath attack to check how beat up my chops were from the day before. If I played a brick I knew I needed some petals and flexibly stuff to help close an aperture opened up from too much over blowing. Detroit studio work was brutal.
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pepperdean
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

gstump is correct. It was ta-ta-ha. The breath attack sounded more like a breath accent in the middle of a sustained note.

Alan
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razeontherock
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Breath accents. Either that or detached notes? Otherwise you're "just slurring." In scare quotes because slurs are great for building chops - just ask Schlossberg!

Being a total Caruso novice I look at this and see no "6 notes," but it must refer to G to C chromatically? IOW, work on the middle range and get that working right, before getting thrown off by either extreme. Pretty standard fare, and a very solid approach.
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

razeontherock wrote:

Being a total Caruso novice I look at this and see no "6 notes," but it must refer to G to C chromatically? IOW, work on the middle range and get that working right, before getting thrown off by either extreme. Pretty standard fare, and a very solid approach.

"6 Notes" is the name of the exercise (and sometimes its variations ).
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juanc
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some years ago I met a Cuban trumpet player who lives in Panama and he takes lessons with Victor Paz, he gave me the six notes with the T-T-B scheme, just like Victor gave it to him, is it the correct way? or the B-T-T serves another purpose, am I "thinking too much"?
Best Regards,

Juan
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bagmangood
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

juanc wrote:
Some years ago I met a Cuban trumpet player who lives in Panama and he takes lessons with Victor Paz, he gave me the six notes with the T-T-B scheme, just like Victor gave it to him, is it the correct way? or the B-T-T serves another purpose, am I "thinking too much"?
Best Regards,

Juan


Don't worry too much about it - my teacher originally taught me T-T-T, and then years later when I restarted Caruso T-T-B first, then B-B-T on repeat.

So long as you're following the rules you should be fine regardless of tonguing scheme
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gstump
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with bagmangood. Following the rules is the key. I was with Mr. Caruso in 1968 and he gave me TTB. Recently I have gone to BTT because my chops are most always fresh so no more bricks on the breath attach. Reminds me of a tenor sax trying to articulate a low Bb pianissimo:

ffffffffffaaaaaaaha
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gbshelbymi
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gordon, thanks for passing it on to me back at WSU in 1980! You're a great teacher.
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B6L
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't want to take this post in a different direction but since Victor Paz's name came up I read a story (maybe here) that Paz could play the 6 notes 50 times in a row!
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gstump
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't doubt Victor could do that. I heard he played the intervals like Reg 2nds to double C in one setting.


Shows would often come to Detroit from Broadway that Victor played like Shenandoah, Barnum, Cats, etc. I had to follow his act and he generally scared the crap out of me. To say the least he is a monster trumpet player.
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gstump
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

gbshelbymi wrote:
Gordon, thanks for passing it on to me back at WSU in 1980! You're a great teacher.


Thanks Greg. It seems my Wayne students are thriving all over the place!
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