Claude's Gap?

BPL · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Mar 2008 Posts: 347

.. I'm wondering what Claude's thoughts were on the subject of "gap"? Obviously he spent a lot of time developing equipment.. he must have had an opinion?

I don't want to re-hash this debate.. just interested in what Claude's views were... particularly in relation to his equipment. (I play a CG Personal on a CG Selmer) I note for example, that my CG Personal (which was one of Claude's pieces.. not a copy) when inserted into the receiver, produces a gap of 1/4"!!! Surely that's not right? Anyway, I've closed it down to just under 1/8" and things are better from C to F. My gut is telling me to close the gap further.. or altogether.. but I don't want to wreck the mpc.

What would Claude say?

Adam V · Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:13 pm Post subject:

The CG horns are designed to have a gap of 1/4"
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crzytptman · Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:22 pm Post subject:

I say have the mpc cut for sleeves and use the gap that gives the best response and sound. That's what I did with my CGP.
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BPL · Veteran Member Joined: 04 Mar 2008 Posts: 347

cheiden · Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 1:44 pm Post subject:

John Mohan · Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 2:51 pm Post subject:

This is one where I'm going to have to say, "I don't know." We never discussed mouthpiece gap during my lessons. Maybe that in itself is telling.

To further confuse things, some Benge and Kanstul CG mouthpieces were made with French Tapers and some were made with Morse Tapers. I have a CG Personal (made by Kanstul) that bottoms out against the receiver in all my horns. The only trumpet I've had that it didn't bottom out in was my 1947 French Besson Meha (which I sold last year). And by definition that horn would have a French taper, so it's clear to me that though there are no markings to indicate it, my particular CG Personal (actually, a friend of mine's) was made with a French taper instead of the standard Morse taper.

I do find while most of my mouthpieces have a about a 1/8th to 3/16ths inch gap in my Benge trumpets, the same mouthpieces have close to a 1/4th inch gap in each of my CG Selmers, so I think the info Eric gave regarding the rather large gap in the CG Selmer is accurate.

Here's an interesting thought: Claude played a French Besson Meha throughout his full-time Studio days. At the time, the various mouthpieces he played on were often modified Bachs (redone by Calicchio and then later, Burt Herrick). If these Bach mouthpieces had the American-standard Morse taper, then when put into a French taper instrument such as a French Besson Meha, there would be a rather large gap created - perhaps around a quarter of an inch. Did Claude like the feel of said gap, and if so, was that why a large gap was specified in the Selmer CG trumpet? Things we'll probably never know for sure...

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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EBjazz · Posted: Thu May 09, 2013 3:05 pm Post subject:

The original Benge CG mpcs only fit the CG Benge. They bottomed out in other horns so we put paper on the shank so it fit. Then Benge came out with the CG s series which fit all horns. I don't know the measurements, but this certainly affected the gap.

Eb
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lh · Posted: Fri May 10, 2013 2:05 am Post subject:

I got this one guys!

In 1977, Claude drove me over to Burt Herrick (Chatsworth?) and had material removed from the shank of my new CG3 so that I had 3/16" gap in the receiver of my Schilke B5. He then play-tested it and had it mildly chamfered by Burt.

In 1980, he had my new CGP altered (by somebody else) so that I had a 3/16" gap in the receiver of my Calicchio 1s/7. these measurements were both done with metal rules at the time, and Claude never told anybody "3/16" before it was done. It was done by feel, and when he felt it was right, he told them to stop. That's when it got measured... and they both were 3/16". I wish I knew exactly what resonance thing he was looking for, but he clearly found it.

Although I still have both mouthpieces (untouched except by Claude), I do NOT have either trumpet. If I can get my hands on one down at Parker's, I'll set up my digital micrometer and post the results here.

HTH
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Jeff_Purtle · Posted: Mon May 13, 2013 3:03 pm Post subject:

We talked about this in the CG Certification Class I did with Claude back in '88 and '89. I know I have it on tape and that should posted on my site along with lots of other material.

I never messed with the gap and just play the CG Personal and CG Selmer. I think I checked mine before and it was less than 1/4" and somewhere close to 1/8".

I think it might be interesting to mention Harry Kim's approach to trying horns and mouthpieces. He hasn't played anything except the CG Benge since first studying with Claude in the late 60s or early 70s. But, when he tries mouthpieces he doesn't look at make or model or any markings on them. He plays a series of scales and arpeggios and various things to see if it responds the way he likes and if not he casts it aside immediately. When he's all done he looks to see what he ended up liking and then puts it away and might try it some other time.

Through all of this he's hardly changed mouthpieces over the years and never been satisfied with other horns besides the CG Benge.

What is more important than all the search for the equipment is the consistency of a daily routine and working to reacquaint yourself with the knack every day.

This is one of the things that sets the CG approach apart from the way others thing about their playing. If you learn the knack and know how to keep it then you understand how to play really easy and all the other issues people worry about with endurance, sound, range and everything else fall into play. But, if you focus on the sound first and ignore the feel you won't understand what it's like to play easily for hours on end......and sound good too.

Jeff
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John Mohan · Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:21 pm Post subject:

Concerning Sound and Feel, when I think back, I realize that when I started studying with Claude, my focus during my formative years of study with him was more on the feel (but always on the sound to some extent). As I progressed and the "Feel" became more innate and automatic, my focus shifted to emphasize the "Sound" aspect (but I still focus some mental energy on the "Feel" aspect).

When I try knew equipment, said new equipment needs to satisfy both Sound and Feel completely, or it gets shelved.

And like Jeff, I've never concerned myself with obsessing about the gap on my own equipment that I use - to me, that would just open up a whole 'nother can of worms I'm not interested in! This recent query into gaps and CG mouthpieces is just for curiosity's sake - in no way is it going to influence me to start experimenting with mouthpiece sleeves or anything like that.

Best wishes,

John Mohan

John Mohan · Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:26 pm Post subject:

Jeff_Purtle · Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 12:42 pm Post subject:

I should clarify a little. I am making a contrast between the CG approach vs. the Bill Adam/Arnold Jacobs approach that primarily focuses on the sound without very much or any consideration for the mechanics behind it all working.

Claude sometimes got a bad rap from some of his students that didn't use as much common sense and just blasted out the exercises without listening that they sounded ugly doing them.

I recently had a student tell me of someone that told him how bad the CG stuff was because he said it ruined his playing and gave him a hernia. The man is a band director and only came to one of my brass conferences and bought only some of the CG books like Systematic Approach and didn't do all the other parts of a smart routine. In the couple weeks after my conference he contacted me and said he had hit his first Double High A in his life and was excited. I tried to ask more questions about what else he was doing and tried to point him to using all the other material that should go with it. He tried it a couple months and then blamed his problems on someone else.

With all of this stuff you have to keep in mind that we are working for the knack. It's not about just blowing as hard as you possibly can. You do have to listen to yourself. Be honest. If you sound harsh and ugly you have to adjust something. It's usually not equipment. Be open to point the finger to yourself first. It's a humility thing too. Most trumpet players have a little trouble in that area of their personalities.

Jeff
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lh · Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 1:56 pm Post subject:

FWIW.... here are pretty accurate measurements continuing from my last post on the subject.

.196" (4.98mm) gap.... CG3 on Schilke B5

.208" (5.28mm) gap.... CGP on Calicchio 1s/7

(.1875" = 3/16" and .250 = 1/4" so it is very close to what I described)
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Eclipse Enigma Bb trumpet 2011
Olds Super Bb trumpet 1958
Eclipse Red Flugelhorn 2011
Selmer Paris model 59 Piccolo 1977
Conn New Invention Cornet 1913

Jeff_Purtle · Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 2:05 pm Post subject:

Mine is exactly 1/8" with my Kanstul made CG Personal my CG Selmer that bought in 1996.
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crzytptman · Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 4:20 pm Post subject:

Jeff said:

mcgovnor · Posted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:57 pm Post subject: every

Every mouthpiece requires a different gap. This is dependent upon the cup depth, throat size, backbore and length of the mouthpiece. On a Reeves m with a 692s or sl, or s +.015, ala Jerry Hey with a #28 throat, I use a #6 sleeve. On a Purviance mouthpiece with a 27 throat and a cup about .020 shallower than a 3c, I use a 3.75 sleeve, increasing the gap. On the next Purviance I use, about .010 shallower, the mouthpiece plays best with a #4 sleeve. It's a sensitive issue, the gap size, and there is no set size to call best, standard or worst.