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Pedal C concerns


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zackh411
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PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 11:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Pedal C concerns Reply with quote

jztrumpeter wrote:
Is it necessary to be able to play pedal C open? I find that the only way I can hit it consistently while playing through Stamp's exercises is when I play it with all my valves down. Does this matter? Or should I be able to play it open as well?


I don't think it's really necessary to be able to play a pedal C at all. However you get it out is probably fine. The guy playing first trumpet in the top army band in the country has to open his spit valve to play a pedal C open... that certainly hasn't stopped him.
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loudog
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mdavis wrote:
trombino wrote:
Allow me to be the contrarian. Practice something that will make you a better musician.....like music.


The point of doing the Stamp stuff, along with other famous teachers ideas, is that if you are playing the trumpet correctly than when you get to the music you can truly focus on the "Music" and not the mechanics of playing the trumpet.

To get more philosophical, what defines music? Couldn't anything be music? I remember hearing about an art gallery with a urinal on the wall. To that artist that was art.

Also, didn't Herseth say something like never practice, always perform. So when we pick up the trumpet shouldn't we always try to be playing "music"


Bingo!
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I don't think it's really necessary to be able to play a pedal C at all. However you get it out is probably fine.


I disagree. I find the exercise of playing good pedals requires refined control of the embouchure. This refinement benefits all of my playing.

Furthermore, playing a pedal C as 123 is not playing the pedal resonance. To experience the pedal resonance you should use the proper valve combis or shorten the horn length. For example: play the pedal Bflat as open, then the pedal B as open and then, with development, the C can be played open.

The pedals should also be played with as pleasing a tone as possible. Not raucous and un-controlled. They should also be played with clean and musical attacks for the best benefit.

Pedals do not require excessive air flow to play nice and controlled.
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mikasaren
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first proper open pedal tone with trumpet is G, and then below that is pedal C, but that is octave lower than what we are talkin here so is that double pedal?
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For me, the value of playing pedals regularly stresses the need to keep the focus of the corners (the part of the embouchure that is closest to the outside edge of the mouthpiece, laterally) inward and not to stretch outward. Doing so while playing in all registers creates some cushion and there is a lot of leeway for pitch to be adjusted upward or downward quite a few cents without much effort. I believe reaching the point in Hickman's 14 Advanced Embouchure book is very similar- it's very difficult to do the 3 halfstep bends downward and back up without slipping partials with the corners anywhere other than where they should be. All of this may be different for others, I can't say, but I've had plenty of students who have had the same results. Learn to play the pedals with the proper first octave fingerings for the most benefit, IMO. One has to believe that if many people can do it, so can you. Good luck.

(Pretty sneaky, mikasaren )
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kalijah
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The first proper open pedal tone with trumpet is G, and then below that is pedal C, but that is octave lower than what we are talkin here so is that double pedal?


The Pedal resonance is not strongly "peaked" like the notes in the normal playing range.

It can be sounded from G up to C without much variance in effort. But the resonance peak is around a B flat more or less.

There is no double pedal resonance.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having studied many years with a student of Stamp I can assure you that how you play pedals is infinitely more important than just making them happen. I got into the pedal register by first working on bending exercises then extending them to below F# always conscious to keep play them with my normal embouchure and only a very specific manipulation that would both lowering the note and then to fully recover to the normal pitch without strain. When I get to pedal C played open I was made clear that for the vast majority or player this will naturally come out very flat and that this is as it should be. Only after playing the pedal C flat for a good long time and allowing the embouchure to mature will a player eventually be able to pull the note up to pitch without unproductive manipulation.
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Last edited by cheiden on Fri May 31, 2013 9:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kalijah wrote:
There is no double pedal resonance.


Not sure I understand this. I find the double pedals are much easier to play. Isn't that resonance?

Kent
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:
kalijah wrote:
There is no double pedal resonance.


Not sure I understand this. I find the double pedals are much easier to play. Isn't that resonance?

Kent

I think this is somewhat a semantic matter. Playing pedals from low F down to C# below requires a certain effort to lip notes not in the harmonic series. Playing pedal C down requires a somewhat different effort, less for some, but you're still playing notes not in the harmonic series. Unlike the upper "double" register none of these notes are discreet harmonic partials (except for maybe pedal G which I think is a defined open harmonic). At least I don't think so.
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zackh411
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kalijah... I'm not trying to imply that pedal tones are not useful. I'm just saying that they are not absolutely necessary to being a good player.
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trombino
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What zackh411 said.
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KRossum
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pedals are just notes; how and why you play them is entirely up to you... (listen to the end of this video)


Link


peace.
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RedneckTrumpeter
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PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2013 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

KRossum wrote:
Pedals are just notes; how and why you play them is entirely up to you... (listen to the end of this video)


Link


peace.
-Kelly

What mute are you using in this?
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swthiel
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 01, 2013 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:
kalijah wrote:
There is no double pedal resonance.


Not sure I understand this. I find the double pedals are much easier to play. Isn't that resonance?

Kent


This might help ... YMMV:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/brassacoustics.html#pedal
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park13
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just got the Stamp book recently, thanks for all the tips about pedal notes. I can feel my chops getting better as I work on expanding my low range. Pedal C's are still a little difficult though
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

park13 wrote:
Just got the Stamp book recently, thanks for all the tips about pedal notes. I can feel my chops getting better as I work on expanding my low range. Pedal C's are still a little difficult though

Great to hear. But to reiterate, don't be in a hurry to play the pedal C in tune. Let it be really really flat and don't worry about it. As your fluency in the pedal register increases you should find over time that the C can be brought into pitch with relatively little effort. Forcing it into pitch before that will almost certainly be counterproductive.
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KRossum
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Redneck -

plunger (Sears).

ONward...
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swthiel
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A little off-topic, but at the closing concert of ITG, Arturo Sandoval, Walter White, Bill Lucas, Rex Richardson, Adam Rapa, Jens Lindemann, Allen Vizzutti, and Bill Hart traded solos in "Night in Tunisia". In an unexpected turn of events, the expected stratospheric playing morphed temporarily into a friendly pedal tone play-off.

Arturo won (duh!), but it was instructive to hear the power and control these guys had in the true pedal register.
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Manny
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I couldn't play the pedal C open for years and didn't really think or worry about it, but then one day I practiced it for a while and the next day I just magically could play it. Really loud and in tune also. I don't know what happened, but i still have it, and can always play it open.
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