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Review: A new variation in trumpet pistons



 
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:19 pm    Post subject: Review: A new variation in trumpet pistons Reply with quote

My friend Martin Wilk sent me a Bach trumpet fitted with his new product – the MAW valve:



Manufactured in Germany of high-nickel content stainless steel, these valves incorporate the cutaway familiar to French hornists and other rotary valve instrument players in a novel way. These valves are only available for Bach trumpets.

Martin is better known in the lower brass world, and he does a lot of repair and customizing. He's also an inventor, not only having patented this innovative piston, but helping to devise new attachment tools for Ferree's dent machine. His shop is in Indiana.

The test trumpet was an old Bach 37ML – stock, except for refitted valves. The MAW valves were also plated to fit the newly-bored casings, so one could go back and forth between the two sets. I struggled with the horn, as it isn't one of the better playing 37's I've tried, and I ended up strapping on a 25O pipe that played a lot better for me. The mouthpiece I use is a stock Curry 3M.

Using the new valves the first thing I noticed was that the horn felt much more open. Not surprising given the size of the "maws" in the pistons that are cut in when depressing them, but the open series also felt more open. There are no "bumps" in the interior air passages of these pistons. Attacks were solid, trills on awkward fingering combinations (C-D, F-G above the staff) were noticeably easier.

I found myself wanting more resistance in the blow on some pieces I played. I haven't played really large bore trumpets in a while and it would take some getting used to this new feel of less resistance. The tone quality changed radically as well, it sounded like a different horn! "Teutonic" might be one way to describe the sound I was getting.

So I tried various combinations of old and new valves to see what would happen, i.e, 1st valve stock, 2nd and 3rd valves MAW, etc. The combo that really worked was MAW valves on 1st and 3rd, and stock piston on 2nd. The brilliance of the sound increased, but it still felt much more open than the stock pistons; a really good balance. Coincidentally, the stock 2nd piston on this trumpet is the closest to "bump-free" of the original set.

At $750 for a set of three valves, (custom diameters can be ordered for oversize, refitted casings) this is not a cheap modification, but it certainly opens up possibilities of changing one's sound without having to invest in a second instrument.

More pics here: http://s1224.photobucket.com/user/yourbrass/library/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20INTEL-PC/MAW%20valves?sort=3&page=1

Martin's Web site/email/phone no.: http://www.mawvalve.com/
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The piston on the left of the screen is very much like an Ovoid piston which has been done before and has no bumps. The one on the right is very interesting.

I once said that if I was going to make a trumpet piston I would use a steel with high nickle content and mentioned WASp-Alloy which is a high nickle content steel that used to be used in jet engines. As nickle content goes up abrasive wear resistance goes down but in an application like this it does not matter. High nickle alloys have been used for well over 40 years on over head cam engines that did not use buckets or lifters but had cam followers and often the engine would have 300,000.00 mile on the engine and the material would have hardly any wear. So a high nickle content steel is a good choice for a trumpet piston the piston will likely never wear it will be the bore that wears.

I like that he has been thinking on this. Best BRass has a valve asssembly design that straightens out the knuckes and ports and reduces the bumps in the ports as well.Denise Wedgewood had his Ovoid design that was absolutely brilliant. Now we just need someone to mass produce them on a mass market horn. So who do we think will do it? I am pretty sure we can count Getzen,Conn,Bach,Selmer,Kanstul out right from the word go. It will likely have to be a Chinese company to bring it to market they will not pay the license fee or even attempt to license it they will just make it and cheat the inventor out of his intellectual rights. The alternative is it will get no traction at all and be lost forever like so many other great innovations in brass. Stomvi USA has made a living off old out of date patents from decades long gone by for Brass. Oh and that is not meant as a slight against Stomvi in the USA or Brass Spa at all I just meant there is a lot of expired patents for building better brass instruments that where never acted u-on and never gained any real traction in the world of mass produced instruments. I am sure the people that patented those idea would be happy to see them used so please do not think I am slighting KO and Brass SPa or Stomvi in any way. I meant it just like if algebra had been patented and many people made a living off it like doctors, chemist,engineers, mathematicians, rocket scientists etc....again not meant as a negative in any way to be clear!!!

So my point is it is super cool but I am withholding spontaneous cartwheels until it see's wide spread use.If the inventor ever pass's through Mid-Michigan close to Flint or Lansing I will gladly feed him smoked pork,fish or steak and beer of his choice! I am currently drinking Ale "Ranger IPA" to be specific it is a craft beer regional to Michigan I think. Think light Belgium Golden Ale with a lot of hopps both bitter and citris like.
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tommy t.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capt.Kirk wrote:
Denise Wedgewood had his Ovoid design that was absolutely brilliant. Now we just need someone to mass produce them on a mass market horn. So who do we think will do it? I am pretty sure we can count Getzen,Conn,Bach,Selmer,Kanstul out right from the word go.


Denis Wedgwood (drop both "e's," Capt.) delivered a horn to Conn at Conn's request and there was brief mention of a license of the "ovoid" patent, but nothing came of it.

Tommy T.
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Adam V
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure if a more Teutonic sound would be something most people would like, but seems like a cool idea.

Maybe try all 3 MAW valves with the stock 25 pipe back on to get the resistance you like?
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Capt.Kirk
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oops....That is why we should not start drinking right after church.......It was or rather is really good Ale!!!! We should also remind people that the Saturn Water Key is his brain child as well! He is a nice man to talk with. Thanks for the corrections I am sure Denis hates being called Denise even via typo!
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Adam V wrote:
Not sure if a more Teutonic sound would be something most people would like, but seems like a cool idea.

Maybe try all 3 MAW valves with the stock 25 pipe back on to get the resistance you like?


I wanted a good-playing horn as a starting point to really see what these babies can do and I had to alter a few things to get there. The new valves do play better on the stock pipe than the original valves, more open, better slotting, but I just didn't like the horn as it was. As I mentioned above, with the 25O pipe and MAW valves 1 and 3, and the stock piston on 2, it gets a killer sound.

Martin's sending me a set of the valves in their stock size and I'll have more of an opportunity to see what they feel like on other models. This is just the first experiment.
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lipshurt
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the picture, isn't the one on the left the stock valve and the one on the right the MAW valve?

Seems like it simply expands the passageway a bit but in a weird shape. Flat on one side... Right? Even more than a rotor would have a flat spot?

The pistons are always an area of constriction and resistance, so I guess these could feel better, but the drastic alteration of the roundness of the passageway seem.... I don't know...iffy.
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Last edited by lipshurt on Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lipshurt wrote:
In the picture, isn't the one on the left the stock valve and the one on the right the MAW valve?

Seems like it simply expands the passageway a bit but in a weird shape. Flaton one side... Right! Even more than a rotor would have a flat spot?

The pistons are always an area of constriction and resistance, so I guess these could feel better, but the drastic alteration of the roundness of the passageway seem.... I don't know...iffy.


Yeah, that's an unexplored area, as piston manufacture is not widely practiced beyond factories. I hope this can be more widely disseminated, it makes a huge difference, just from my initial experiments.
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

These don't appear to be ovoid. Wouldn't that require ovoid ports on the piston block?

Here's another discussion.
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1285755

Kent
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yourbrass
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oxleyk wrote:
These don't appear to be ovoid. Wouldn't that require ovoid ports on the piston block?

Here's another discussion.
http://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1285755

Kent


Just to clarify, the piston on the left is stock.
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spach
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having a name like Gramelspacher, I've always admired German engineering. But this looks like, as a physics professor friend once mentioned, "a solution in search of a problem". It would be nice to clip the air stream instantaneously rather than slicing thru it; probably impossible so the next best option is "fast". Perhaps extremely light carbon fiber valves actuated by an electrical solenoid? We need only press the buttons. Ain't technology fun?!
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ericmpena
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2022 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've spend about 10+ hours going back and forth between standard pistons and MAW pistons and here's what I've experienced.

The MAW valves give the horn more focus and fluid flexibility.

That can be a good thing or bad thing. Notes don't speak out as well with the MAW valves. And the slotting can feel slightly looser as well...so I think it's a personal preference decision.

I think I prefer the fuller sound of the standard pistons, as well as the more secure slotting. But I can see where someone would prefer the tighter sound focus and easier flexibility of the MAW valves.

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