Best valves ever made?

[etc-etc]

[laurent]

[Honkie]

[wvtrumpet]

Bauerfeind and Blessing makes a really nice valve!!! I have a 1980's ML 1 that the valve action is superb. The rest of the horn, well a little questionable, but the valves are fantastic!
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Freelance Performer/Teacher WV, PA, MD, and OH http://www.neil-king.com
Yamaha NY Bb, Adams F1 Flugelhorn, Schilke P5-4, Stomvi Eb/D Elite, Bach C 229 bell 25A, York Monarch cornet.

[Dayton]

In response to Honkie, Edwards trumpets use Getzen valves as does Roy Lawler.

[giakara]

[jimmyjazz1968]

Although I don't own it anymore, my Getzen Eterna flugelhorn had great valves! However, my Adams flugelhorn with the Bauerfeind valves are the best I've had on any instrument. I have also been playing with a few of the CarolBrass Trumpets and have been very impressed with their valves as well.
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James Ingenito
New York
www.jamesingenito.com

[James Becker]

[Capt.Kirk]

Ok first I am going to start with my experience with vintage valves Buescher, Elkhart, Olds and Conn Crysteel are all top notch and if cared for at all and probably made could easily outlast the owner of the horn. I am almost sure that if modern once a month cleaning was in place and a good thicker then kerosine synthetic low evap vale oil was used from day one these valves would last even better.

Ones that I think where better then most for a long time especially before monel came on the scene Holton, Olds, King, Blessing not counting the valves made at Olds once Norlin bought them out. I have some of those and while they are still like new in most ways and hold compression they are high maintence because they are so badly cross hatched they trap debris and want to corrode if you do not stay on top of them. I am sure their are some exceptions even Norlin had some leave the factory right the first time round!

I just got hold of a Besson 2-20 not long ago and am still learning about her but I have to admit other then a valve guide seating issue they are fantastic valves!!!!

Currently since I can not get a Bauerfiend valve set to build with and have not gotten my hands on an Adam model and prob. never will I am not including them because I can not coment on something i have no experince at all with. So for the current line up I am going to call it a draw with you guessed it

Getzen Current Production Valves and HG parent of CarolBrass brand and supplier to just about everyone on this site that builds trumpets that is not useing a Kanstul,B&S or Getzen valve assembly!

I know the Getzen valve assemblies have great staying power and can be rebuilt more then once no problem and if cared for will not corrode. The CarolBrass HG units as much as I love the feel of them SS valves I do not have any copies on hand that have been used for 10,20,30+ years. Like wise we do not know if 40 years from now we will be able to get over sized SS pistons for them. The mandrels used for elctroforming bells are either stainless steel or close too it because the bath is acid based I do believe and you need a metal that does not take to plating. Some electrodes for plating are SS. My favorite Chemistry Prof. once had a job trying to design industrial cook ware for the company that makes Ragu(sp) Spegehatti Sauce back then they could not find a SS product that would not get pitted to death from cooking that much tomato sauce in no time. We had long chats about metal after class she was fantastic to talk with. So I doubt we will be copper plating and then nickle platting SS piston valves down the road. Something to think about.

For the record their is not much difference between monel and most nickle/copper alloys. So it is really not hard to plate them in copper then plate them in hard nickle. It might not be as ideal as starting with a pure nickle tube but really it is not a big deal. Only way to make a monel piston worth a darn is to take it down and build it up with copper and plate it in nickle.

Worst thing to happen to trumpet players was them buying the song and dance on Monel. Best thing to happen to trumpet manufactures... you guessed it Monel can not even imagine how much money they save in chemicals, maintenance, re-work due to plating issues, hazardous disposal fee's etc......Any company that says Monel is the best material to make a trumpet piston from is either ignorant or they are lie really well and lose no sleep at night one or the other. Like wise any company that says they made the switch for any other reason other then cost saving is again not being honest! Their is a reason why no one makes tuning slides inside or outside from monel and why no one makes trombone slides out of monel! Never seen a monel spatula in chemistry class that did not need to be cleaned with sand paper from time to time due to corrosion. Like wise if you look at the make up of monel as an alloy and then look at what is used over the years for the piston tubes and for the nickle sliver trim on a trumpet you will see they are fairly similar and all have copper in them unless you use a 100% nickle tube which is not the norm I think only Getzen does that.

I hate being lied to with a passion. I was gone from his world for 20 years and it did not take long for me long to observe that monel was not all it was cracked up to be. My Bach did not have monel valves and it clanked when I pushed the valves and when I sold it it was still working like new!

Personally I think companies owe all of us apologies for selling us valves they knew where not what they promised and yet they kept charging top dollar for a product they where saving a fortune on making. Not going to hold my breath waiting for something that will never come but I do think it it funny that so many smaller builders are all using a valve assembly made in Taiwan because it is better built and cheaper then the domestics are willing to do. It is like cosmic Karma. They milked the industry for all it was worth and now some competition is at hand that builds a better more complete product for less money. The only problem is they can not meet the sudden demand for their product I am sure.

I love that the most expensive trumpets on earth do not lap their valves in at all. Why? Because lapping is for two things to pad marketing brochure to people with no machining experience and two to make up for sloppy machining with all kinds of clearance variation and tolerance stacking. No one with any back ground in machining or engineering needs to be told that lapping is a sign of cheap machining mostly. If you want the parts to fit nicely with out lapping the cost goes up because the cost of the machinery goes up.

Dave is telling the truth with regard to lapping even though most people that play a trumpet will prob. think hand lapping is a sign of quality. It is only better then machine lapping having a product that requires no lapping and works out of the box with it is the real sign of quality and precision. Piston are not round on trumpets they are slightly oval. I have measured run out at home from brand to brand the difference is from piston to piston not so much brand to brand.
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[Capt.Kirk]

I have to say that for me the material the valves are made out of can make or break my decision to by the horn. If it something I just have to have because it is unique and not based on a Bach 37,72 bell then I can live with monel knowing I will own the horn long enough to make a valve rebuild worth while. Otherwise I just as soon avoid anyone that is not willing to accommodate me as a customer. At least with Jupiter you could always buy a set of SS valves and lap them into your monel equipped Jupiter. No one else has ever given you a choice.

There is a guy on here that bought a Calicchio not long ago and they sent his pistons out before purchase to have them redone in nickle which I thought was cool since they where accommodating the customer.

To be honest I would love a return to nickle pistons. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that no one in California would ever go back to nickle plated pistons for production due to the waste disposal cost's being sky high in California. I can not even imagine how bad taxes and energy cost's must be in California let alone health care cost's. Same thing with Conn/Selmer/Steinway/Bach I doubt they would go back to them either. If anything you might see a move to SS since it is easier to justify new machinery cost then hazmat waste disposal cost's.

If anything Conn/Selmer.......Bach would prob. outsource piston manufacture to China and import the parts to the use for final assembly if they went the SS route. It is not what I would do but I do not work at Bach. I would go to Taiwan as my first choice if forced to outsource but I would rather they made them in the USA. If they where smart they would go to a single piston design for use in all of their brands and just change the cosmetics of the outside of the valve assembly and maybe change the shape of the plastic guide. The average person would have no clue and it would reduce tooling cost and unit cost. It would make the supply chain simpler too because you would not have so many different pistons to stock. You would only need one size for new production and one size for refit. After the refit it would be kicked to the curb as un-rebuild able once worn out the second time. Used bells and leadpipes would be easy to find and old monel and nickle plated valve assemblies would be in high demand to recycle all the bells and such just going to waste.

We will have to see how things go after the total melt down in Europe happens and the Collapse of Europe's economy tanks the rest of the worlds economies because we are all tied rather tightly together today.

So that is why we will see a SS next not a return to nickle plated pistons. I have a couple Pre-Selmer-Buescher valve assemblies and Olds valve assemblies I am saving to rebuild and use when that day comes!

People can hate me all they want but I am not usually wrong when it comes to trends. Now we just need some time to see what shakes out.

The wild card in the bunch is Yamaha......They offer some models with Nickle plated valves I hear they not very good nickle plated valves but that is just what I hear. So they could go either way if pressured from customers to ditch monel. I would think they would go the SS route due to cost since other then new machinery cost which they do not seem to worry about much it would be cheaper then a return to nickle. On the other hand the fact they offer nickle still on some models opens the door. Given their reputation and the fact that only one premium brand use's Nickle plated pistons and they are world renowned for their smooth, durable almost perfect valves Getzen. I would think they might try to go to an exclusive or more exclusive product route then what ever the rest of the industry is moving towards. Going to SS would be like admitting that all those cheap Chinese made trumpets with SS valve had it right all along and that SS was the better material and I do not think they would want to admit that. Especially given the Yam-alloy issues in the past one black eye over valve materials is one too many.
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The only easy day was yesterday!

[ChopsGone]

Just for the record, the Monel pistons which were nickel-plated for a Calicchio were done completely in-house. That was the least of the variations from standard John Duda accommodated with that horn.
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Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....

[chuck in ny]

yes, the total melt down in europe. agonizingly slow process it has been so would you kindly melt already. bucking the trend you have countries like sweden who have their books in order.
yeah. events in the world are going to affect brass tooters. it will be a conversation for another day. smooth sailing would be nice but you always sit behind the hand you are dealt.
i can't fault monel as a metal. they just keep working for me. they don't particularly build up schmutz in a demanding and biological environment or have adverse chemical reactions. i don't understand what's the problem.
when you have a melt down, do you call in the musicians?
..chuck

[tptguy]

Understandably, all the comments I read deal with the smoothness of the valve action. While that's a very important point, I learned through an experiment with a Callet Jazz that valve action should take a backseat, like all aspects of trumpet design, to the sound out front. I participated in a test of a Callet Jazz before and after a valve change - originally Kanstul valves, then Bauerfeind. Valves were smooth and fast in both cases. But, the sound was very significantly downgraded with the Bauerfeind. I'm not saying there is anything innately wrong with Bauerfeinds. I'm only pointing out that a truly fine trumpet works as a whole. Change any part, even as small as a couple of slide buttons and the sound out front will change - maybe better, perhaps worse. In my experience, too many players think of trumpets like Legos and overlook this important point.

[MacMichael]

[ChopsGone]

Those old Olds valves make me wonder just what the plating was. The 1929 catalog shown on Olds Central indicates the pistons were plated with the "same secret alloy" as was used in the trombone slides. Whatever it was, it's a real joy to unearth an Olds from the 1930's that's been sitting in someone's attic or closet for 50 years or more, and find the pistons looking and performing like new when it's clear the horn hasn't been reworked.
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Vintage Olds & Reynolds & Selmers galore
Aubertins, Bessons, Calicchios, Courtois, Wild Things, Marcinkiewicz, Ogilbee Thumpet, DeNicola Puje, Kanstuls....

[Retlaw]

[Tom K.]

On the trumpets I have or have tried, the best are my 1953 Olds Ambassador. Amazing. Nothing comes close to those. I like the 2004 Bach I have as well.
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"At the round earth's imagined corners, blow
Your trumpets, angels" -John Donne
50s Olds Ambassador
70s Yamaha 738
80s King 650 flugel
90s Bach 184 cornet
90s Bach Strad 37
10s Carolbrass 5060 C trumpet
10s Schilke B5 trumpet

[Jo-Rae-Us]

Can anyone identify for certain these valves. They come from a Taylor Zeus cornet. I was told years ago they were Bauerfield, but someone has suggested the Microbir. How can I tell the difference?
Thank you.

My Taylor Zeus cornet is for sale both on eBay and here in the marketplace and I don't want to mislead anyone.

[Jo-Rae-Us]

Please refer my ebay ad.... I can't get an image uploaded here. But I've put new pics of the valves on eBay.

Sorry about that. I'm a dill when it comes to computers..![/img]

[oljackboy]

I have a Taylor flugelhorn with Bauerfiend valves. As Tony says, it does not like sitting without use. I also have a Possegger with Bauerfiend valves, and it behaves the same way. Thing is, when they are clean and freshly lubricated, they are really, really nice. Smooth, fast, no bounce and no noise. Confidence-inspiring.
Current Taylor trumpets and flugelhorns do not use these valve sets.