Posted: Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:37 pm Post subject: TCE stumbling blocks
Hi everybody,
I'm not sure who will find this helpful, but I'd like to post some of the things that I had to learn in order to start to have success with TCE. In fact, I'm going to post some things that I wish I had understood when I started studying with Jerome Callet five years ago.
Here goes.
1. Most trumpet players, including very accomplished ones, have NO understanding of what is going on inside their mouths when they play. Unless a person has spent time specifically developing an awareness of the sensations of different parts of the tongue touching different parts of the teeth, lips, etc... he very likely has NO IDEA what he is actually doing.
2. This makes it EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to learn from embouchure diagrams. If the picture says "make your tongue look like this", and you don't have the feedback mechanism in place for your brain to know where your tongue actually is, you very likely will not be able to make your tongue go like that.
3. Psychologically it is very difficult for accomplished players to go back and start all over learning to play a different way. This leads to a very, very strong temptation to want TCE to be some kind of "minor adjustment" to the normal way you play. If you normally play with your tongue back in your mouth and blow a lot of air while collapsing your lips into a big, deep mouthpiece, TCE is going to feel RADICALLY different. It's going to feel like you're starting over as a young kid learning to make notes again. There is no way to short-cut this: very likely you will not get where you want to be by doing more of what you have been doing.
4. Along these same lines: It's very easy to develop a half-decent spit buzz, but then return to exactly your old set as soon as the mouthpiece touches your face. You have to resist this. There likely will be no magic breakthrough where you suddenly start playing with a new embouchure just as comfortably as you did with your old one. It will take discipline and concentration to learn to make sound in an entirely new way.
5. That said, once you are on the right track, real improvement will happen more rapidly than before. You will use less air and have more endurance, a more brilliant sound, surer articulation, and the entire range of the instrument will become available to you. This is not 'snake oil'. It really, really does work.
6. Be very discriminating in who you take advice from. If the person teaching you embouchure can't effortlessly slur from double pedal C to double (or triple) C... then why should you value his opinion? Even if he can actually play, he still needs to be aware enough of his own embouchure to be able to explain what he is doing. JC's major strength is that he has super chops, AND he understands why.
7. That said: be aware that JC can seem like a bit of a "moving target". I have a stack of embouchure diagrams from him, none of which are like the one from the MSC DVD. I was confused and went to go take some lessons with Mac Gollehon --- who had a much bigger stack of JC's diagrams than I did. A few months ago JC explained yet a new variation to me, and told me, to wit: "Forget all the old diagrams!"
(Let me pause here to note that, if nothing else, this might change the way you read much of the discussion here in this forum. It's a little odd to argue fine points of a diagram from 2007 when JC himself has discarded it.)
My understanding of this last point is that JC is actually NOT a moving target, but in fact he is constantly refining and improving on the same fundamental approach. The basics remain the same: as little air as possible, mouthpiece/face interface very little pressure, tongue/lips interface very strong, wedged tongue, tremendous air compression.
8. Ultimately, all that matters is the SOUND. When you're doing it right, it's apparent from the sound. It's why even over the phone JC can hear whether you're getting the right idea or not.
Mac Gollehon told me: "Once you start to really hear what's going on in their playing, most professionals are intolerable to listen to." He's one million percent right. Dull tone, sloppy attacks, and painfully inaccurate (and moving!) pitch. Many of us grew up listening to trumpet "idols" who are truly not worth imitating. We learned to accept that certain notes are habitually out of tune, and that almost all notes start on one pitch and end on another. Once you start to hear the alternative, there is no going back.
A wonderful resource that we have is YouTube, where it's possible to listen to, and often actually watch, some of the best trumpeters in history. Go watch a video of Harry James, Horst Fischer, Maurice Andre, Charlie Shavers, etc, and SEE how hard they're not blowing. Or just turn the sound off, and watch them take breaths. If somebody is telling you to take deeper breaths than they are... shouldn't you question that? Shouldn't you wonder if there's a different way of playing that uses radically less air and less effort?
Anyway, those are some things that I know now that I wish I knew then. Better late than never.
Weren't you recently lamenting that any halfway interesting discussion thread in this forum gets shut down?
But in any event, I've heard you play, and in case it wasn't clear, you're not the intended audience for my post... you've got some seriously high-functioning chops already. I was hoping that it might find somebody who is about where I was five years ago, and that it might help them get on track faster than I did.
There are many ways to play the horn. I too use a lot of tce principles but the majority of great players I have heard are not full out 100% tce advocates. To say people not using tce play out of tune is ridiculous in my opinion. I love tce, but that's because the principles work and feel good to me. If someone uses Reinhardt or Gordon and plays successfully that is all that matters. There are great players using all sorts of approaches. A person's sound model depends on their goals and they should use the approach that helps them achieve that.
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:42 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Many of us grew up listening to trumpet "idols" who are truly not worth imitating. We learned to accept that certain notes are habitually out of tune, and that almost all notes start on one pitch and end on another. Once you start to hear the alternative, there is no going back.
Who are some of these players that you're talking about? _________________ www.mikesailors.com
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:50 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Most trumpet players, including very accomplished ones, have NO understanding of what is going on inside their mouths when they play. Unless a person has spent time specifically developing an awareness of the sensations of different parts of the tongue touching different parts of the teeth, lips, etc... he very likely has NO IDEA what he is actually doing.
How can you make a claim like that??? I mean seriously, do you have some evidence to back that up? It sounds ridiculous to be quite honest.
I think it's important to remember that your experience is yours, and yours alone. _________________ www.mikesailors.com
I'm not sure what kind of evidence would convince you. Is it hard to buy the idea that lots of people who have succeeded at things naturally without ever struggling have a difficult time explaining to other people how to succeed? I think this is a general fact of life, and not specific to trumpet playing.
That said, here are just a few examples of things that I have experienced while learning to play the trumpet (over 25 years or so):
1. Players who practice Jacobs-style breathing, although it is demonstrably the case that they do NOT move big volumes of air through the horn while playing.
2. Several lead players I've met who could always naturally play the high register, who when asked, reply: "Huh... I've never thought about it... yeah, I guess my tongue IS up there in front of my teeth."
3. One example of a professor at a famous music school who, when asked to explain how the tongue works in multiple tonguing, proceeded simply to play the Carnival of Venice triple-tongue variation, and then said "Like that." He wasn't kidding. He then proceeded to explain that he used "anchor tonguing", but that that was "wrong", and that his students should learn to do it the "right way", which he couldn't demonstrate.
4. Players who do all sorts of isometric face-muscle exercises, even though it is demonstrably the case that they do not use those muscles while playing.
5. Several accomplished players who teach their students to articulate and play using syllables, despite the fact that a mouthpiece visualizer can demonstrate that that's not what they're doing when they're actually playing.
Perhaps I stated my claim a bit too strongly, but the basic idea stands. I could have stated it more diplomatically as follows:
There is no reason to assume that just because someone can do something reasonably well, that he understands how he is doing it.
That absolutely is my experience, but I doubt that it is mine alone.
-JS
Last edited by stipins on Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
This is an interesting idea, but I think it's wrong. There are many ways to play the third trumpet part in an orchestra, yes. There are many ways to play within the staff. There are many ways to play a muted jazz solo.
But I really don't think there are that many ways to play a double or triple high C, or to bury an entire brass band while playing a lead solo. Everybody I know who can do it uses their tongue in a fundamental way to create tremendous air compression. (I include in this some people who didn't realize they were using their tongues like this until I asked them detailed questions about it.)
I think it's almost possible to build an analytical model of the vibrating lips and prove mathematically that it isn't physically possible to reach the full range of the trumpet just by adding more and more air. Something different is needed, and I think that the only thing that makes physical sense is to use the tongue.
Joined: 30 Oct 2012 Posts: 1838 Location: Austin/New York City
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:54 pm Post subject:
stipins wrote:
Hi Mike,
I'm not sure what kind of evidence would convince you. Is it hard to buy the idea that lots of people who have succeeded at things naturally without ever struggling have a difficult time explaining to other people how to succeed? I think this is a general fact of life, and not specific to trumpet playing.
That said, here are just a few examples of things that I have experienced while learning to play the trumpet (over 25 years or so):
1. Players who practice Jacobs-style breathing, although it is demonstrably the case that they do NOT move big volumes of air through the horn while playing.
OK, but how do you know this? Have you done tests?
2. Several lead players I've met who could always naturally play the high register, who when asked, reply: "Huh... I've never thought about it... yeah, I guess my tongue IS up there in front of my teeth."
There are just as many who know exactly what's going on. Seems sort of a moot point.
3. One example of a professor at a famous music school who, when asked to explain how the tongue works in multiple tonguing, proceeded simply to play the Carnival of Venice triple-tongue variation, and then said "Like that." He wasn't kidding. He then proceeded to explain that he used "anchor tonguing", but that that was "wrong", and that his students should learn to do it the "right way", which he couldn't demonstrate.
Again, there are just as many people who can tell you exactly what they're doing to achieve those results.
4. Players who do all sorts of isometric face-muscle exercises, even though it is demonstrably the case that they do not use those muscles while playing.
5. Several accomplished players who teach their students to articulate and play using syllables, despite the fact that a mouthpiece visualizer can demonstrate that that's not what they're doing when they're actually playing.
How so? How can you see inside the mouth when using a visualizer?
Perhaps I stated my claim a bit too strongly, but the basic idea stands. I could have stated it more diplomatically as follows:
There is no reason to assume that just because someone can do something reasonably well, that he understands how he is doing it.
Yea, I agree. However, I'm not sure you're examples are as clear cut as you think. I'm not trying to antagonize you, just offering up some perspective.
That absolutely is my experience, but I doubt that it is mine alone.
No, I definitely am not including Chris LaBarbera in that, since I've never spoken with him. I was thinking of several serious brass players I knew years ago who practiced isometrics, even though it was clear from touching their faces while they played that they were not tensing those muscles at all.
There's probably no reason to bicker about this, since it wasn't really the point of my original post.
But I would like to make it clear that I think that Chris LaBarbera is one of the greatest living trumpet players. (I would also bet everything I have that his tongue is way forward and very strong when he plays, even if he doesn't consider himself a "true" TCE disciple.) If he thinks he benefits from doing isometrics, I'm certainly not going to dispute that. But the category of "most trumpet players" generally doesn't include players of his elite caliber.
Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 787 Location: Paris - France
Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:51 pm Post subject:
stipins wrote:
Hi Mike,
I'm not sure what kind of evidence would convince you. Is it hard to buy the idea that lots of people who have succeeded at things naturally without ever struggling have a difficult time explaining to other people how to succeed? I think this is a general fact of life, and not specific to trumpet playing.
That said, here are just a few examples of things that I have experienced while learning to play the trumpet (over 25 years or so):
1. Players who practice Jacobs-style breathing, although it is demonstrably the case that they do NOT move big volumes of air through the horn while playing.
2. Several lead players I've met who could always naturally play the high register, who when asked, reply: "Huh... I've never thought about it... yeah, I guess my tongue IS up there in front of my teeth."
3. One example of a professor at a famous music school who, when asked to explain how the tongue works in multiple tonguing, proceeded simply to play the Carnival of Venice triple-tongue variation, and then said "Like that." He wasn't kidding. He then proceeded to explain that he used "anchor tonguing", but that that was "wrong", and that his students should learn to do it the "right way", which he couldn't demonstrate.
4. Players who do all sorts of isometric face-muscle exercises, even though it is demonstrably the case that they do not use those muscles while playing.
5. Several accomplished players who teach their students to articulate and play using syllables, despite the fact that a mouthpiece visualizer can demonstrate that that's not what they're doing when they're actually playing.
Perhaps I stated my claim a bit too strongly, but the basic idea stands. I could have stated it more diplomatically as follows:
There is no reason to assume that just because someone can do something reasonably well, that he understands how he is doing it.
That absolutely is my experience, but I doubt that it is mine alone.
-JS
Maurice André admitted in several places that he would have liked to teach his son what he was doing but he was not able to.
And hear the difference... and look at that tongue.
Lick or tick? http://youtu.be/gmXYvTCXdbw?t=2m55s
Tongue always forward? http://youtu.be/gmXYvTCXdbw?t=4m22s
Best Regards,
LB
Stipins, ya da man! _________________ "For if the trumpet has an uncertain sound who will prepare himself for the battle?" Paul, Ch.
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:26 am Post subject:
stipins wrote:
6. Be very discriminating in who you take advice from. If the person teaching you embouchure can't effortlessly slur from double pedal C to double (or triple) C... then why should you value his opinion?
Completely wrong. If you've been using that as your criteria for finding teachers, it explains why you've had problems.
stipins wrote:
There is no reason to assume that just because someone can do something reasonably well, that he understands how he is doing it.
Completely true. Interesting how that completely conflicts with your earlier statement.
That's why you study from great teachers. It's great if they're amazing players as well, but you're trying to learn from them so their skill in teaching is much more important.
You hire players because of how well they can play. You hire teachers because of how well they teach. There is often overlap in those skill sets, sure, but look for the qualities that are important for what you need and don't prioritize things that are less so.
That's not to say some don't have it all. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
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Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2481 Location: The Big Valley
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:20 am Post subject:
I became fascinated with some of Callet's principles after hearing Gollehan at a studio in New York. He was giving a lesson in the adjecent room and some of the concepts made sense to me. Just the other day I slipped into some bad playing habits which were straining my chops, only to correct it yesterday by merely thinking of where I was putting my tongue and how I was using my air. I doubt seriously, after getting to know Mac some, that he considers many pros unlistenable. He seems one of the most open minded dudes out there, and terribly talented.
6. Be very discriminating in who you take advice from. If the person teaching you embouchure can't effortlessly slur from double pedal C to double (or triple) C... then why should you value his opinion?
Completely wrong. If you've been using that as your criteria for finding teachers, it explains why you've had problems.
stipins wrote:
There is no reason to assume that just because someone can do something reasonably well, that he understands how he is doing it.
Completely true. Interesting how that completely conflicts with your earlier statement.
My first statement is logically equivalent to:
1. "Can't do" implies "can't teach"
If we disagree on this point, I guess we have to stop here. I've never met somebody who could teach others to be competent without being competent himself. This goes for any area of human endeavor, not just trumpet playing.
My second statement denies the truth of:
2. "Can do" implies "can teach"
We seem to agree on this one. This is not a contradiction or a conflict, since 1 and 2 are logical inverses of each other, and the one does not imply the other.
-JS
Last edited by stipins on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total
I doubt seriously, after getting to know Mac some, that he considers many pros unlistenable.
When I read comments like this one, I am reminded of why I only bother to delve into internet discussion groups every several years; and why each time, after a short interval, I get too exasperated to continue and swear never to do it again. Please don't take this personally. It's just the nature of the internet that every possible quibble must be discussed at interminable length, rather than continuing the main idea of a thread.
Let's re-cap what happened here.
I posted some ideas and facts that I did not have available to me when I was starting to study TCE five years ago. I'm certain that if my present self could have communicated some of these ideas to my self of five years ago, my study would have proceeded much more smoothly and rapidly. Feeling altruistic and hopeful that some other soul might also benefit similarly, I tried the best I could to gather some of the most important and difficult revelations, in an attempt to help him somehow.
Naturally, there have been no responses to what I considered were the most crucial observations (in particular, I thought the part about the embouchure diagrams changing very rapidly, and especially about the DVD diagram being obsolete, would have been helpful for somebody, somewhere). Instead, the thread has rapidly devolved to the point that now the veracity of a direct quote, from a living person whom you ACTUALLY KNOW and could CHECK WITH, is being directly questioned.
What possible constructive outcome can come of this line of questioning? To establish that I'm a liar, or a crazy person, and that therefore my whole post can be dismissed?
If my self of five years ago had read Mac's quote, he'd probably be confused, and perhaps wonder what Mac meant. What sorts of things was Mac hearing that made it unpleasant to listen to many professional recordings? How does one avoid sounding like that? And so on. I'd like to think that it would not have been my reaction to shut down my mind so fast that all that remained was to question whether the quote actually occurred or not.
Joined: 31 Mar 2007 Posts: 2481 Location: The Big Valley
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:34 am Post subject:
I wasn't questioning your veracity or challenging your orig. posts at all. I happen to find it hard to believe that Mac would think that. If he said that to you, then I suppose he said it. He's not a dear friend, but we have mutual friends, and he seems to like their playing as well. You have EIGHT points to your orig. post and it's followed by a recounting of your Mac G. encounter. And then you suggest to talk with Callet to see how successful Caruso was? What in the world are you talking about?
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:51 am Post subject: Re: TCE stumbling blocks
stipins wrote:
...Many of us grew up listening to trumpet "idols" who are truly not worth imitating. We learned to accept that certain notes are habitually out of tune, and that almost all notes start on one pitch and end on another. Once you start to hear the alternative, there is no going back...
-JS
I think it is great that you have reached a point in your playing where you can rave about your success, but paragraphs like the one I quote above will do nothing but turn folks off. For one thing, it implies that we aren't discriminating enough to choose "idols" who can play well, and says that our choice of "idols" (your quotes not mine) is suspect (the reason for the quotes?)
When you criticize my "idols" or my ability to choose them, you are really implying that my taste sucks. This is not likely to get me to side with you about anything. Can't you speak to your own success without having to denegrate others in the process? _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out.
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:36 am Post subject: Re: TCE stumbling blocks
veery715 wrote:
When you criticize my "idols" or my ability to choose them, you are really implying that my taste sucks. This is not likely to get me to side with you about anything. Can't you speak to your own success without having to denegrate others in the process?
I did not intend to denigrate anyone. Please let me clarify.
If you, or anyone else, is already satisfied with your own playing, and you feel like you're on track to get the sound and chops you want to have... then great, keep going, and enjoy. I mean that.
I grew up listening to Marsalis and Smedvig, among others. I tried to get on track to sound like them (funny, I know, since they are different in many ways). But then years later I heard people who sounded more like Harry James, Horst Fischer, Chris LaBarbera, Mac Gollehon. And I had NO CLUE how to learn to sound like them. I started to listen to Maurice Andre and Rafael Mendez, and the more I listened, the more I felt like Marsalis and Smedvig were missing something very important from their sounds; and so was I.
I couldn't understand how to slightly adjust my playing to get this other, more powerful, more brilliant, more effortless sound. And it took me a while to learn that that's because a slight adjustment won't do the trick: a complete, radical change is needed.
My point wasn't to rave about how successful I have been. Quite the contrary: my point was to say that, equipped with some better information and better understanding, some other player could probably undergo the same transformation in MUCH less time than it took me.
If you're happy with your trumpet role models, your sound, your progress, then great; my post wasn't for you.
My post was targeted at somebody who feels like they hear things from other players that they have NO CLUE how to begin imitating. Whether it's a screaming double high C, or a beautiful lip trill in a baroque piece, or a double-tongued Flight of the Bumblebee... I certainly felt like there were things that people could do that I just could not, would not achieve by doing more of the same. If you can do all the things you want to do, then great! And if you can't do some things, but those things don't match your taste/desire, then fine, I'm not criticizing you for that at all.
After working with JC and Mac and slowly, slowly learning what was going on, and identifying a lot of my own shortcomings and misunderstandings, I eventually succeeded with TCE. I went from feeling like the Gollehons and LaBarberas and Fischers and Andres of the world were a different species who could not be imitated by mere mortals, to feeling like at least I'm playing the same instrument that they are.
I would love to help out anybody who wants to make a similar radical transformation in his own playing, but doesn't know how to get started, and would like to avoid years of false starts and flailing. That was the sole point of my post.
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