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MaryAnn
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: effortless Reply with quote

I haven't reported in for a while because I've been dealing with health issues. However, recently I have been in possession of my horn again and messing with RI because I still want to learn.
I was getting a pretty forced, high air pressure high C out. Difficult, no mouthpiece pressure, but it sure seemed I was working against more than I should be.
The rule is, persevere and ye shall find things.
So this morning, after reading about the whole Bill Adam approach to playing an instrument by not "buzzing" but finding a resonance point on the leadpipe (which I do quite well to play an effortless high range on the tuba,) I started messing with RI again.
As always, can't quite tell you what I'm doing differently except that everything is much more relaxed, the air is not high pressure because the lips are more relaxed, and I'm getting an effortless top line G out. Effortless. So I decide to see if that which has never, ever, worked before, raising the tongue to raise the pitch, will work.
Hmmm. Effortless high C just by raising the back of my tongue.
Intriguing.
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MaryAnn
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, here's what I'm doing:
I'm using exactly as much muscle tension as I need to hold my lips against my teeth, which is a slightly rolled in position because I have to roll in slightly to get total tooth contact on the lips. Then just hold them in place. Without air flow they are lightly touching each other.

Place mouthpiece gently on lips and gently blow. Pitch comes out. Effortless.
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WHEEZER2890
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Mary Ann
I want to find the "Effortless Approach" by Bill West . Where would I find it ? One question would this apply to trumpet since it is in the Brass family ?
Thanks
Wheezer2890
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MaryAnn
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 29, 2013 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never heard of it....but if you find it let me know where as I'd like to read it. I remember many years ago during a technique discussion on the horn list that someone said that if playing the horn is difficult, you are not doing it right, but the same person never said anything about how to do it right, so I figured he was just blowing in the wind.
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WHEEZER2890
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Day Mary Ann
When U put your lips against your teeth and curl them and then blow easily - Do your lips vibrate with pitch ? My do not - To me that would mean that my lips are stretched and not relaxed - Is my assumption correct ? I await your reply. Thanks
Respectfully
Joel
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MaryAnn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

G'Day, Wheezer.
I've moved beyond that post at this point in time, but no, it was literally just an air hiss, no pitch whatsoever. The tone was not wonderful and I lost focus easily. Now I'm getting better focus and the tone is better, and there is quite a bit more air pressure because I'm working on getting tone. But to start with, no sound, just like is described in the book. No clamping either, just enough muscle tension to curl the lips in and blow gently through the center.
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danduncan
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Effortless is definitely the right idea! (See link)
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Valerie
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that's how I play my upper register. After starting BE, I spontaneously began very slightly rolling in my lips for every note I play and for the first time in my life (at age 52) I played a high C and held it for 12 seconds. I was so shocked, you could have knocked me over with a feather. Being introduced to the new idea of rolling in AND being given "permission" to use it was like magic for me.

I guess someone might call this a "direct" embouchure change, I'm not sure. It was subtle, something no one would be able to "see", but the difference it made on my range, endurance, tone was amazing.

The first year I studied BE, I used that slight roll-in for all my RI exercises. It wasn't until much later that I learned how to do the RI the way Jeff describes them in the book with air pockets, etc. (You, MaryAnn, were instrumental in teaching me that.) When I learned how to do that, things improved even more. 7 1/2 years into BE now....progress isn't as fast as it was those first few years, but as long as I keep practicing, I keep progressing.

That's what I love about BE; it grows with me.
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OndraJ
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val, do you add the airpockets just for the RI exercises or aswell for your normal playing?
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MaryAnn
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie, how much did it frustrate you that all the years and years of lessons you took on the horn, that no teacher ever suggested that you slightly roll in your lips? That is what has bugged me the most, is the number of teachers who refused to tell me how to play even though I was giving them money. I still have a great deal of resentment over that.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaryAnn,
That is what has annoyed me the most about learning this technique and about Jerry Callet's Superchops.
The truth is (at least where I live) that I think people just don't know.
Just like it says in the BE book - there are people who have stumbled upon the ability to play and then they become teachers and don't actually know what they do so can't pass it on!
I'm extremely fortunate to have been one of the rare people who could just play well but my technique was really messed up when I went to college and everything I was taught was about breathing and wind power.
Discovering MSC and BE later on has made playing trumpet so much easier than before and I, like you, am amazed at how it seems that no-body knows this stuff. What's worse is that when I talk about it to other players they don't believe me.... ridiculous.
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MaryAnn
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The *really* frustrating thing is when you can SEE that they are changing their lip position and then they deny it! "Oh, no, what I'm doing is USING MORE AIR."
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha! Yessss. This is true.
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danduncan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 7:54 am    Post subject: effortless Reply with quote

MaryAnn and trumpetplanet - your ideas about "one embouchure" are good. Learning to play "effortlessly" is what I have spent over 40 years doing. Please view this video and see if it is representative of what you're talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUsXEsHko1c
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 17, 2014 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Danduncan.
You obviously have an impressive range on the trumpet, but it is not really the topic of this conversation.

Also... I can see no other mention of "one embouchure" What do you mean?
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https://neotericbrass.com/
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Valerie
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ondra, yes, I believe I do occasionally use air pockets in normal playing (at rehearsals & in performance) because I notice them at home in my practice room.

Mary Ann asked:
Quote:
Valerie, how much did it frustrate you that all the years and years of lessons you took on the horn, that no teacher ever suggested that you slightly roll in your lips? That is what has bugged me the most, is the number of teachers who refused to tell me how to play even though I was giving them money. I still have a great deal of resentment over that.


Extremely frustrating. No one ever used those simple words (roll in or roll out), but I auditioned for college music school the trumpet teacher told me, "Nice tone, but you look like you've been playing trumpet." Then the horn prof. introduced me to the Farkas method that pictured the more trumpet (rolled in) embouchure I had used successfully in high school as "incorrect" and instructed me to use the "correct" flat & "unrolled" Farkas embouchure. My trying to emulate the "look" of the correct Farkas embouchure totally ruined the decent range I had developed in high school.

I would have been better off if no one had touched my embouchure at all, rather than criticizing what I had that worked & instructing me to do something that didn't work. To make matters worse, after 2 years of this dysfunctional embouchure, I was told that I had a "pressure problem" and put on a mouthpiece shank with a pressure release valve so I couldn't play more than about one octave. Sheesh! That's why I dropped out of university music school; I didn't have the "correct" looking embouchure.

Fast forward 33 years, I read ONE little statement on Jeff SMiley's website about rolling in & rolling out, and I could SUDDENLY play a fifth higher.

When I told this story to 2000 members of the Memphis Horn list in 2007 and asked the question, "What's wrong with horn pedagogy?" several horn instructors were highly offended that I would criticize their noble traditions. Many traditions are good, but some need to be taken out with the garbage. Thankfully things are beginning to change for the better in the horn world.
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Last edited by Valerie on Sat Oct 18, 2014 4:21 pm; edited 3 times in total
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MaryAnn
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember the hullabaloo on the horn list. Now some people are understanding what they do a lot better. I just had an attempt at a horn lesson this week, from someone who had never heard of rolling and claimed he didn't do it. Despite that he could go a fifth above high C; when I asked him how he did it, he said he didn't know but encouraged me to do exercises going up and down the partials until I got there. Same old same old. Boring at this point in time. The Mystery School of brass playing. He even demonstrated something that only occurs when lips are rolled in, a sort of "instability trill" where in the very high range the pitch will flip back and forth between two notes. Had no idea how he was doing it, and denied that he could possibly be rolling his lips in. He called the higher note his falsetto range.
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trumpetplanet
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:

When I told this story to 2000 members of the Memphis Horn list in 2007 and asked the question, "What's wrong with horn pedagogy?" several horn instructors were highly offended that I would criticize their noble traditions. Many traditions traditions are good, but some need to be taken out with the garbage. Thankfully things are beginning to change for the better in the horn world.


Here here!!
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https://neotericbrass.com/
https://trumpetpla.net/
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danduncan
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2014 7:39 am    Post subject: effortless Reply with quote

MaryAnn wrote:
Ok, here's what I'm doing:
I'm using exactly as much muscle tension as I need to hold my lips against my teeth, which is a slightly rolled in position because I have to roll in slightly to get total tooth contact on the lips. Then just hold them in place. Without air flow they are lightly touching each other.

Place mouthpiece gently on lips and gently blow. Pitch comes out. Effortless.


What MaryAnn is describing here is a very good approach - using ONLY the minimum tension needed... gently blowing = pitch comes out. Very good MaryAnn. The idea being to LET the note come out. Thereby increasing response, = better range, tone, facility - everything...
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Bluesy
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The trouble with rolled-in high notes is that they lack gravitas. They are pinched-sounding, shallow, and have no body. They sound like air being let out of a balloon by stretching the little opening.
Of course if you make the opening small enough, then force air through it, you will get a squeaky sound of some kind, resembling Dan Duncan's, but it ain't music, IMO.

Sorry - not my kind of altissimo trumpet. I'll keep struggling and moving up slow by slow.

Bluesy
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