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Type 4 Rattle


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LeeC
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2003 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Was wondering if someone could give a definition of a type 4 rattle as well as some of the characteristics of it. That would mean questions like:

What register does this occur in?

Does this happen when tired or when warming up etc?

How to eradicate it?

What are the usual causes.

No, I'm not a type 4 (at least not on my regular chops) but my son is very much a type 4. He sometimes gets a gurgling tone while playing but it's not the water key.

My guess is that this is simply a transition phase and he just needs more development. Never-the-less I'm curious from a scientific aspect.

Lee Cahalan
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Mr.Hollywood
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2003 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to pass this one off to Paul Garrett.

Hes a type IV, and would know the "quirks" better than me (IIIB)

Chris
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bgibson
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee;

Was wondering if someone could give a definition of a type 4 rattle as well as some of the characteristics of it. That would mean questions like:

What register does this occur in?

It would occur in the 3rd air chamber, around the A & Ab in in the staff. (usually)


Does this happen when tired or when warming up etc?

Please refer to the "Pivot System Manual"
I believe this topic is covered in the first part of the book.
I am unable to look at my manual at this time so I will ask Rich or one of the Dave's to help.

How to eradicate it?

Rest is one answer, once again check the manual.

What are the usual causes.
Strain is one cause.

No, I'm not a type 4 (at least not on my regular chops) but my son is very much a type 4. He sometimes gets a gurgling tone while playing but it's not the water key.

My guess is that this is simply a transition phase and he just needs more development. Never-the-less I'm curious from a scientific aspect.

Lee Cahalan


Lee, if you do not have a good answer by Wednesday contact me off list.
All my Doc materials are in my office and I won't be there until Wednesday.
Scotty Holbert is a type IV and he may have more information.
WEG

              
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Wilktone
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I recently posted the following on another forum, but it is exactly what Bill was referring to, I think:

From Donald S. Reinhardt's "Pivot System for trombone, A Complete Manual with Studies:"

Quote:
II. Rattles and Overtones
A. Almost always brought on by some for of playing strain. It is an uncontrollable involuntary lip vibration.
Caused by:
1. too many high notes
2. Playing fortissimo before warming up thoroughly.
3. Improperly balanced practice
4. Too much playing without resting.
5. Changing mouthpieces and instruments frequently.
6. Playing with too much mouthpiece pressure
7. Swollen, strained, spread-lips
8. Loss of sleep, etc.
9. Reversing the natural pivot
10. Over-pivoting
11. A shifting, bobbing moutphiece
12. Tounguing between the teeth and lips.
13. Excessive chin or lip vibrato.
Corrected by:
1. Not practicing too many high notes.
2. Warming up correctly.
3. Resting more often.
4. Playing softly the notes that rattle.
5. Pianissimo sustained tones on the rattle notes daily.
6. Balancing the practice period.
7. Adjusting a faulty pivot.
8. Avoiding strain.
9. Using only one mouthpiece.
10. Maintaining the anchor-spot when breathing.
11. Using less mouthpiece pressure.
12. not tonguing between the teeth and lips.
13. Maintaining a correct diet.
14. Adopting a hand vibrato.


- Reinhardt, 1942 page 14 (currently published by Theodore Pressor Company).

From the "Encyclopedia of the Pivot System"

Quote:
Strained, swollen, or fatigued lips often cause extraneous overtones, rattles, and fuzz throughout the middle register of the upstream performer. This form of playing strain is often called the "type four rattle."


- Reinhardt, 1973 pp 223-224.

When I start getting this rattle I know it's a good time to put the horn down and rest for a while. Bill and I were talking over the phone recently and he pointed out to me that Type IV and IVA embouchures need lots of short rest periods throughout their playing, but once they've blown out their chops they're done for the day and need some time off. In a strange way, the type four rattle is a good measure of when I need to stop before I overplay.

Quote:
It would occur in the 3rd air chamber, around the A & Ab in in the staff. (usually)


This is right in line with my experience. I get it on a 3rd partial concert G flat (as a trombonist). I also sometimes get it on my low concert B flat, which manifests as a double buzz between low B flat and pedal B flat.

Dave W.

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[ This Message was edited by: Wilktone on 2003-09-22 14:02 ]
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LeeC
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks guys,

Ages ago when I played more trombone, I'd get an unwanted overtone on my B flat at the top of the bass clef staff as well as the whole chromatic series downward. This was embarassing because the conductor used to go around the room and make each of us all blow a concert B flat tuning note. When my growling overtone would sound he'd single me out for "not practicing enough". Of course the problem was I was practicing wayyyy too much. And yes, the overtones always occurred during an overall period of chop strain. That was on my regular type lll standard chops.

Thanks all for the reprint of the rattle/overtone causes.

Lee Cahalan
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elgin
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:42 am    Post subject: What is the physiological cause of the rattles? Reply with quote

I have read the encyclopedia and understand the symptoms and "playing" causes of the rattles, but I have not read anywhere the actual physiological cause besides the obvious “the bottom and top lips are vibrating at different pitches”. In other words, is it a change in the texture of top or bottom lip? ..or both? Is the bottom lip becoming the predominate vibrator (vice the top)? Is the bottom lip protruding too much, thus upsetting the alignment of the lips in the cup? Doc talked about the “V” that forms at the moment that the vibrations begin. Is this becoming distorted?

I believe that if we knew the specific cause of the double vibration, we could possibly delay or fix the "type IV rattles".

Using a golf example. If I begin to slice when I get tired, the coach could say "Take a break. You’ll be OK.". But, I would rather hear something like "When you get tired, you turn your shoulders early and come over the top, which causes the slice.” Then I would know what to work on, or least what to look out for.

After all these years, isn’t there a better answer than take a break?

Any experience or info on this issue?
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elgin
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After considerable thought and experimentation, I believe one cause of type IV rattles is a change in airstream direction from -- up to down. Here's my reasoning:
1. The bottom lip is stronger, especially in its ability to roll/curl in.
2. When we tire, the top lip begins to roll out more, while to bottom lip is still able to hug the bottom teeth.
3. At this point, the mismatch in alignment can cause the top lip to direct the airstream in a downward direction.
4. I have been able to duplicate a rattle effect while placing the mouthpiece in my normal Type IV low position, then greatly exaggerate the lower lip curling in over the bottom teeth, thus forcing the airstream down.
5. I believe another contributing factor in this scenario is the fact that my lower lip is very stiff from literally scores of cold sores on it over many years, i.e., lots of scar tissue. So, the "V" that's supposed to form at play time doesn't easily flip out.

Can anyone corroborate this theory?
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2016 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elgin wrote:
After considerable thought and experimentation, I believe one cause of type IV rattles is a change in airstream direction from -- up to down. Here's my reasoning:
1. The bottom lip is stronger, especially in its ability to roll/curl in.
2. When we tire, the top lip begins to roll out more, while to bottom lip is still able to hug the bottom teeth.
3. At this point, the mismatch in alignment can cause the top lip to direct the airstream in a downward direction.
4. I have been able to duplicate a rattle effect while placing the mouthpiece in my normal Type IV low position, then greatly exaggerate the lower lip curling in over the bottom teeth, thus forcing the airstream down.
5. I believe another contributing factor in this scenario is the fact that my lower lip is very stiff from literally scores of cold sores on it over many years, i.e., lots of scar tissue. So, the "V" that's supposed to form at play time doesn't easily flip out.

Can anyone corroborate this theory?


I don't think the airstream could actually be changing direction in most cases because most people play either upstream or downstream due to their natural facial structure. While it is true that there is the type I, who can switch before they finally find where they are most comfortable, they are in the minority. What is going on physically when a type IV rattle has set in can also vary greatly from person to person. I think one of the main causes of it is when the lips vibrate at too different of a speed. The vibrations should be relaxed, which is encouraged by not playing on tired chops and generally avoiding strain. That and playing softly. Correct practice with minimal tension might not solve every problem, but it should get rid of the type IV rattle.

Also letting the mouthpiece ride up and put too much pressure on the top lip is referred to by some Reinhardt students as "meathooking it" (not sure who came up with that or why). But this is a big pitfall for Pivot Classification 2 types (types IIIB and IV). Basically the player gets tired and start pressing too hard on the top lip. This limits the range and endurance a lot and limits the player's flexibility and efficiency. If the player is able to avoid excessive fatigue, that will greatly reduce this problem and in many cases will prevent it entirely.
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scream
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeeC wrote:
Was wondering if someone could give a definition of a type 4 rattle as well as some of the characteristics of it. That would mean questions like:

What register does this occur in?

Does this happen when tired or when warming up etc?

How to eradicate it?

What are the usual causes.

No, I'm not a type 4 (at least not on my regular chops) but my son is very much a type 4. He sometimes gets a gurgling tone while playing but it's not the water key.

My guess is that this is simply a transition phase and he just needs more development. Never-the-less I'm curious from a scientific aspect.

Lee Cahalan


I haven't been on here in quite a while and decided to answer this 14 year post that I missed.

If your son is a Type IV player, one of the reasons he rattles is the lower jaw is too weak and is floating back (most likely because of too much mouthpiece pressure) to a more reposed position. The "Jaw Retention Drill" will help strengthen the lower jaw in order to support the mouthpiece and embouchure. In particular, it needs to be able to get "over the break" around the top of the staff (anywhere around Eb to G) to access the upper register. Meaning, the jaw needs to come even more forward. Also, the appropriate tongue arch and abdominal lift comes into play.

Another exercise that was suggested to me by Dave Sheetz was the "Palm Exercise" by the Stevens-Costello Method. Very difficult at first, but over time it will train you not only how to get the jaw working for you, but how much (or little) mouthpiece pressure you really need to play. It's very possible to get to a double C and higher, with sound, with this drill.

Hopefully this helps someone, if not your son.

I think I'll pop in here a little more often.

Paul Garrett
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bach_again
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

scream wrote:
LeeC wrote:
Was wondering if someone could give a definition of a type 4 rattle as well as some of the characteristics of it. That would mean questions like:

What register does this occur in?

Does this happen when tired or when warming up etc?

How to eradicate it?

What are the usual causes.

No, I'm not a type 4 (at least not on my regular chops) but my son is very much a type 4. He sometimes gets a gurgling tone while playing but it's not the water key.

My guess is that this is simply a transition phase and he just needs more development. Never-the-less I'm curious from a scientific aspect.

Lee Cahalan


I haven't been on here in quite a while and decided to answer this 14 year post that I missed.

If your son is a Type IV player, one of the reasons he rattles is the lower jaw is too weak and is floating back (most likely because of too much mouthpiece pressure) to a more reposed position. The "Jaw Retention Drill" will help strengthen the lower jaw in order to support the mouthpiece and embouchure. In particular, it needs to be able to get "over the break" around the top of the staff (anywhere around Eb to G) to access the upper register. Meaning, the jaw needs to come even more forward. Also, the appropriate tongue arch and abdominal lift comes into play.

Another exercise that was suggested to me by Dave Sheetz was the "Palm Exercise" by the Stevens-Costello Method. Very difficult at first, but over time it will train you not only how to get the jaw working for you, but how much (or little) mouthpiece pressure you really need to play. It's very possible to get to a double C and higher, with sound, with this drill.

Hopefully this helps someone, if not your son.

I think I'll pop in here a little more often.

Paul Garrett


Thanks Paul! While not addressed at me, I have a few type IV students (I am a type IIIB), and I do read the encyclopaedia and this forum and posts about type IV things to help my students, but you reminded me of the palm exercise and I feel like I have 1 or 2 students that this will apply directly to. The jaw retention thing I falsely thought only about my type IIIB players, as thats something I work on, but it's great to know that type IV can benefit.

Mike
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scream
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mike! I'm happy to help. I doubted the original poster would see this after so many years. I kinda thought someone would see it.

One word of caution. The "Palm Exercise" is only for Type IV, upstream players.

Paul
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have an entire page Doc gave me called The Type IV Rattle that I need to find and scan and post here. Thanks for the reminder, Paul. One more thing for me to remember to do.


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bach_again
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeboppinFool wrote:
I have an entire page Doc gave me called The Type IV Rattle that I need to find and scan and post here. Thanks for the reminder, Paul. One more thing for me to remember to do.



Neat! Look forward to seeing that!!

Rich, do I recall you play IIIB on trumpet but IV on bass trumpet? Am I remembering correctly?

Nice to see a little action on the DSR forum. I have learned a lot here!

Best,
Mike
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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not a Reinhardt student but I do read this forum regularly and Wilktone also. I get the rattle and for me it is a sign of a floppy flaccid lower lip/jaw, either from tiredness or lack of concentration. if it happens early then its a mental problem, if later, time to put the horn down for a while
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you guys say "rattle" are you referring to what others call a "double buzz" or "double lip vibration" or "cracked tone" or is this something different?
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peanuts56
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
When you guys say "rattle" are you referring to what others call a "double buzz" or "double lip vibration" or "cracked tone" or is this something different?

I was wondering the same thing. Admittedly, I don't know a whole lot about Reinhardt. I went to college with a guy who was from Philadelphia and studied with him. He was a very fine player.
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BeboppinFool
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
When you guys say "rattle" are you referring to what others call a "double buzz" or "double lip vibration" or "cracked tone" or is this something different?


I would say all of the above. For trumpet players it tends to show up right at the top of the staff, F, F#, G, right in there. On trombone, it includes the notorious Wolf Tone Ab rattle (like our Bb below our high C).

Will find that tomorrow, I'm hoping!

By the way, I'm a IIIB on everything. Found out that my Type IV diagnosis was to help me get past the mental scars. Good ol' Doc!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I regret to report that I cannot find my sheet on the Type IV rattle. This is bizarre because everything I got from Doc is in one very large binder in my basement studio.

One of the most important things I remember from that page is the importance of maintaining the support of the legs of the inner embouchure, in particular, the legs on the bottom. Those are the ones that so many of us let go and then start to fall apart as a result of letting them go.

I will continue looking for that sheet. This is very strange.
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JoshMizruchi
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich, if it's any help, I have it. I don't know how to post it here, but I am happy to Email it to you if you want. Then you can post it.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JoshMizruchi wrote:
Rich, if it's any help, I have it. I don't know how to post it here, but I am happy to Email it to you if you want. Then you can post it.


Yes, please do. You ought to still have my email address. Thanks, Josh!
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