• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

Type 4 Rattle


Goto page Previous  1, 2
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Donald S. Reinhardt
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JoshMizruchi
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 29 Mar 2005
Posts: 539
Location: Newark, NJ

PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sent!
_________________
Josh Mizruchi

http://www.soundcloud.com/joshmizruchi
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator


Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6198
Location: AVL|NC|USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Josh!

So, now I see that he gave me this for what he called the Nerve-Racking Ab Rattle, and it was dated October 6, 1984.

If anybody would like this, email me through the TH email link below and I will be happy to send it to you. Be sure to send me your email address.

Thanks again, Josh!
_________________
Rich Willey’s SoundCloud Page
==============
Visit my website
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator


Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6198
Location: AVL|NC|USA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I sent the Rattle sheet to a couple guys, and got the following question (he gave his permission to post this):

In an email to me, a fellow trumpeter wrote:
I understand most of what is said here and its not far from what I am doing but I am a little stuck. What does it mean to "kill the feel that goes along with the rattle and mental damage is far worse than muscular damage”?

Here was my reply to him:

The way that it feels when that rattle starts . . . we have to do whatever it takes to stay away from that and not make that an “indelible” feel. If we get to where we expect it to be there, we should not be surprised when it’s there. But if we pull back the moment before it starts, little by little and bit by bit we are able to erase that feel.

And that’s why he’s saying it’s more a mental thing than a physical (muscular) thing. Our mind can bring it on if the muscles let it.

That’s the way I interpret that, anyway, having been somebody with many mental battle scars on trumpet, then leaving trumpet for 14 years and coming back to it. A lot of those scars wanted to creep in, but I didn’t let them. I took my time, nice and slow, and came back to trumpet by baby steps to avoid making some of those old things indelible.

Thanks for writing!

Rich

In a follow-up email, the same trumpeter wrote:
Rich

Thanks again. This belongs on the Trumpet Herald or at least a modified version of that in the rattle thread.

So now it's here.
_________________
Rich Willey’s SoundCloud Page
==============
Visit my website
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mac Gollehon
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Feb 2014
Posts: 196

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A type 4 rattle as well as many other type 4 related problems can be fixed by doing the jaw retention drill and the Air to nose drill. I am aware that air to nose is a Roy Stevens thing but still apples to Docs type 4 classification. That’s the fix. The cause is from pinning or meathooking top lip under the rim. Lip separation follows as do all the problems that go with it. Jaw retention drill and think top lip down to receive air column.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elgin
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 104
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac. Your remedy of air to nose knows and Jaw forward fits with my contention that the rattles are related to an uncertain airstream direction. Why else would they work?
_________________
SIMA
62MDV Trumpet Top, Warburton 7 backbore
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mac Gollehon
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Feb 2014
Posts: 196

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elgin yes the consistency of airstream in upward direction in conjunction with the proper teeth alignment and lip alignment and mouthpiece weight and placement favoring bottom lip . This provides a stable tripod for the mouthpiece and lips to maintain the seal needed for a clear tone without rattle. The rattle is result of faulty alignment and unfavorable mouthpiece weight distribution and miscalculations in air and lip compression ratio. These things are necessary for the best results of a Type 4. Endurance and range and dynamic variables for a Type 4 player can be nearly limitless or quite disasterous. Takes some patience to work it out. The air to nose drill helps to get there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elgin
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 104
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Today, I was having an especially bad double-buzz day. Partly because I practiced hard late last night, and also I'm not feeling to well today. Anyway, I gave your suggestion a try. I already play with my lower teeth ahead of my uppers, so I exaggerated to the point of having a good 3/16" forward gap, which produced a very high horn angle. The rattles disappeared! I've only seen a few players with a horn angle that high, so I guess I've felt in the past that this couldn't be right for me.

Doc cautioned against buzzing upstream, but I don't see a huge difference between buzzing upstream (I've been doing some) and the nose-to-air drill. I see the logic in it for both the feel and the muscular development.
Thanks Mac
_________________
SIMA
62MDV Trumpet Top, Warburton 7 backbore
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mac Gollehon
Veteran Member


Joined: 27 Feb 2014
Posts: 196

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Elgin. The measurement of one quarter inch teeth opening should suffice as long as bottom teeth are slightly forward of top teeth (and remain there) for commencement of the tone. Many times that position is not maintained throughout the phrase being played. Very important to adhere to this for a Type 4. Doc told me in 1977 in my case don’t do lip buzzing because I was not depending on the buzz to produce the tone but rather the short stroke vibration of the top lip and direction of the airstream to upper mouthpiece cup where the rim meets the top of cup and creates a different turbulence then air and vibration straight into the hole. He said in my case buzzing would cause blown apart spread lips in the low and midrange. Once again this advice was for me and possibly other type 4 players (I don’t know for a fact)and probably should not be correct for downstream types. Glad that helped with getting rid of the rattle and wish you continued success .
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jetjaguar
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1055
Location: Vancouver, BC

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John Mohan wrote:
When you guys say "rattle" are you referring to what others call a "double buzz" or "double lip vibration" or "cracked tone" or is this something different?


I REALLY think it is what others call double buzz. I get it when I am out of practice. My solution is patience, long tones, playing soft enough to avoid the buzz, and it will go away. I'm currently in the final stages of eliminating it. I was in Korea for 2 weeks and practiced maybe 4 times during the trip. The day I got home I felt and sounded fine. I worked on the Seahawk fanfare, and the next day and the two weeks since, I've been double buzzing or rattling. Its getting better and better with long tones. It hits me right around the G, A, and B in the staff.
_________________
1947 Olds Super Recording
Kanstul M-B4D-P mp

Double Buzz Survey: https://goo.gl/JUuaNn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BeboppinFool
Donald Reinhardt Forum Moderator


Joined: 28 Dec 2001
Posts: 6198
Location: AVL|NC|USA

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's see if this works:



Well alright, then! We finally have this sheet posted!
_________________
Rich Willey’s SoundCloud Page
==============
Visit my website
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
elgin
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 104
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich
Thanks for posting that.
_________________
SIMA
62MDV Trumpet Top, Warburton 7 backbore
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elgin
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 104
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mac
Thanks for the info. Interesting reason for not buzzing for type IV. I'll have to think about that and check it out.
_________________
SIMA
62MDV Trumpet Top, Warburton 7 backbore
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elgin
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 104
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2018 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote=Doc told me in 1977 in my case don’t do lip buzzing because I was not depending on the buzz to produce the tone but rather the short stroke vibration of the top lip and direction of the airstream to upper mouthpiece cup where the rim meets the top of cup and creates a different turbulence then air and vibration straight into the hole. He said in my case buzzing would cause blown apart spread lips in the low and midrange. Once again this advice was for me and possibly other type 4 players (I don’t know for a fact)and probably should not be correct for downstream types. Glad that helped with getting rid of the rattle and wish you continued success .[/quote]

So, Doc didn’t say don’t buzz upstream, he said “don’t buzz”. I’m wondering if buzzing upstream would have been OK? I can see why downstream buzzing could spread the chops, but not upstream.

Btw Mac, keeping the jaw more forward and thinking “air-to-nose” while playing is really working well for rattles. I’m even more convinced that they are primarily caused by an anomalous airstream.

An added benefit is that I have better compression/resistance.
_________________
SIMA
62MDV Trumpet Top, Warburton 7 backbore
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jetjaguar
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1055
Location: Vancouver, BC

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got this pretty darn bad. It wasn't brought on by anything to do with jaw position, horn angle, lack of pressure on lower lip, etc, so I'm concluding its from strain or damage to lip tissue. I'm going to lay off playing for 2 weeks. The world of music will have to do without me for a short while. I'll report back in 2 weeks.
_________________
1947 Olds Super Recording
Kanstul M-B4D-P mp

Double Buzz Survey: https://goo.gl/JUuaNn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elgin
Veteran Member


Joined: 26 Mar 2010
Posts: 104
Location: Virginia

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jetjaguar
Sorry to hear that. Are you a type IV?
_________________
SIMA
62MDV Trumpet Top, Warburton 7 backbore
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jetjaguar
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 20 Nov 2006
Posts: 1055
Location: Vancouver, BC

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know but I'm a real rattler at times. I played today anyway and it was much better. I haven't studied the embochure types. I had been using a Yamaha 11C4 but today I used a Constellation 5CW and a Bach 7 and they worked pretty well. 7C too.

Thanks for your concern.
_________________
1947 Olds Super Recording
Kanstul M-B4D-P mp

Double Buzz Survey: https://goo.gl/JUuaNn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> Donald S. Reinhardt All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2
Page 2 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group