| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
bamajazzlady
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 May 2011
Posts: 691
|
 Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:02 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
It's sad that some well-known persons of importance to the brass repair and brass playing field express leaving a site that is supposed to be a community but seems to be anything but. I can understand both Mr. Austin and Mr. Landress doing so because their reputations are at stake and TH was/is supposed to be a place where players of all levels can come and discuss trumpet relevant issues, not to get constant barrages of vitriol that surely no one would want to encounter in the physical world.
_________________
"Nobody can go back and start a new beginning, but anyone can start today and make a new ending." - Maria Robinson |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
supportlivejazz
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 3757
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Every thread posted by, participated in by, or about Capt Quirk became an "argument clinic".
That's why he's gone.
_________________
Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet
"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Flattergrub
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Sep 2008
Posts: 762
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
notecracker
Regular Member
Joined: 18 Aug 2011
Posts: 52
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Moderators wrote: | | The whole point of the Dedicated Forums is that they are for discussing the particulars of a method, not having an open discussion about its merits. If you want to argue about whether Claude Gordon is better than Carmine Caruso, you may do so in the Fundamentals or Pedagogy forums (and wear your flame-proof underwear). If you want to learn about Carmine Caruso's approach without having to argue about Claude Gordon, that's what the Dedicated Forum is for. |
That's all fair enough. But half the time people get booted off, ganged up on or treated like a lepers quite unfairly on the Dedicated Fora for simply asking honest questions or reporting difficulties or slow progress with aspects of a method. If actual moderators were moderating these fora rather than method authors or disciples themselves (i.e. people with a vested interest), then such unfair treatment would be less routine.
_________________
RIP Maurice, 1933-2012. The greatest. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Craig Swartz
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 7769
Location: Des Moines, IA area
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Read more, post less. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
sounds7
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 635
Location: New Orleans
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| +1000 to the Moderators for taking needed action. Others who cause trouble on a routine basis need to take note. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lmf
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 2190
Location: Indiana USA
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Captain Kirk by his latest posting making unfounded accusations to reputable people, businesses and companies caused his own banishment from TH. It is not likely he can say: "Everything I post is somebody else's fault." CK clearly "crossed the line" this time. It is not his rambling posts that caused his banishment, but his latest tirade of unfounded accusations that was his undoing.
Whatever caused CK to think he could "cross the line" and post such unfounded accusations about reputable people, businesses and companies in his recent posting? The Moderators chose wisely to take action and banned CK. The Moderators have been more than patient. I believe banning CK was the right thing to do. Others agree that it is about time banning occurred while others disagree banning was too harsh.
What ought to be clear in this argument is that CK "crossed the line" and is responsible for his postings. He made postings earlier that made unfounded accusations about companies that were often overlooked on the basis of free speech or whatever? However, the most recent posting crossed the line and clearly over the top.
Some may say those receiving such unfounded accusations were capable of defending themselves, but why should they have to as they did nothing wrong. Had they done so, CK would likely not have stopped posting unfounded accusations again and again.
In the past. CK was taken to task by TH members about similar accusations against reputable businesses and companies to no avail for CK continued to make them over and over again. His current posting expanded the list of those he made unfounded accusations about. His posting clearly crossed the line and TH Moderators took action that led to CK's banishment from TH. I believe they made the correct decision. CK was clearly responsible for his own postings was he not? Why should CK not be held responsible for his posting that led to his being banned on TH?
Best wishes,
Lloyd |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
omayarts
New Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 5
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| paultune wrote: | | PH wrote: | | Being an idiot and a blowhard is not against the current usage agreement. |
If those characteristics were against the usage agreement, there would be about 10 or 12 members left on the forums. Being a new member shouldn't preclude participation nor negate the validity of one's opinions. Another important point, the ones leaving aren't exactly Nobel laureates and Grammy winners, they are repairmen. |
Absolutely unbelievable. I have been avidly lurking the forums for years before and after my comeback after a 15 year hiatus from my sleek, sexy brass-piped mistress. I agree that we are a community and this is a valuable resource. Out of all the vitriol, the above sentiment appeared to be the most disrespectful and egregious of all. Also, Captain K has always been a horse's patootie, but he did cross the line recently. I hope by removing the guilty and unwanted from the forums, that many of us comeback players can again find a peaceful place to lurk, learn and listen. Many disagreements seem to evolve from individuals trying to push their personal equipment preferences and opinions on others, not realizing that as diverse as human beings and players are, so is the need for all types of equipment and gear. Anyone willing to toil in the trenches to make and/or maintain these "brass mistresses" for all us naughty boys should be commended not condemned. We, who have to put "her" to our lips and caress "her" every chance we get need these guys ! Some of our wives and girlfriends become jealous of their "brassy, sassy" musical nemesis, but hey, that is life.
Another thing that we have to realize, is that most of the people on the forums are not top performers in the field. Studio players are too busy in the studios and all the other pros don't bother much with sitting at a computer screen going back and forth about horns with various trolls as well as legitimate contributors. It takes too much valuable time and feelings can get hurt as we've seen here.
Many people have been hurt by these forums, including Jason Harrelson, who almost went crazy dealing with the accusations of a few years ago. That was terrible and I am sure had a negative impact on his business and reputation and now we see it happening again here. This has to stop. Both Mr. Landress and Trent need to be treated with respect and appreciated for who they are and as members of TH. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yourbrass
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jun 2011
Posts: 3630
Location: Pacifica, CA, USA
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 6:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
"Let's see your support for these accusations. A definition of libel, examples of statements of found libelous, examples of specific CK comments that fit the definition and specific examples. And there are a few defenses to libel-you will want to make sure none of them fit CK's comments."
I think personal attacks and slander are more accurate terms for what the not-lamented former poster was doing. And another poster refrerred to the fact that this stuff never goes away online, and can show up on searches for information - forever.
It's great to hear from the moderators - this has not been a small subject, and seemed to have been getting more extreme and out of hand. Thank you for finally stepping in, if that's what you've done.
_________________
"Strive for tone." -John Coppola
Edwards X-13
ACB MV3C /ACB A1/26 backbore
https://yourbrass.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
omayarts
New Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 5
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| yourbrass wrote: | "Let's see your support for these accusations. A definition of libel, examples of statements of found libelous, examples of specific CK comments that fit the definition and specific examples. And there are a few defenses to libel-you will want to make sure none of them fit CK's comments."
I think personal attacks and slander are more accurate terms for what the not-lamented former poster was doing. And another poster refrerred to the fact that this stuff never goes away online, and can show up on searches for information - forever.
It's great to hear from the moderators - this has not been a small subject, and seemed to have been getting more extreme and out of hand. Thank you for finally stepping in, if that's what you've done. |
I agree. There are ways to have the posts removed from the google search engine, but it is not easy and you have to have legal grounds to do so. It would be interesting to hear from the individuals who have been spoken of in a bad light in the past and maybe they can let us know if these types of posts have had an effect, negative or positive, on their businesses. Have they had customers cancel orders or request refunds or return items based on things posted on TH ? I know the shill bidding accusations against Harrelson were eventually proven and may have been the most likely to adversely affect his business, but he never posted regarding that. Also, it would be beneficial to know if Trent or John or Del Quadro have had any "backlash" or decrease or change in their business flow after negative things have been posted about them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Blue Trane
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 20 Dec 2009
Posts: 669
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Craig Swartz wrote: | - some of the more pious members here must be feeling pretty good by now, and I suppose a preponderance of the mods as well for exercising their power to make members follow the rules about being "nice" when it is either politically correct or is inline with the judgement of the mob. Seriously, some of you should be ashamed.   |
Quoted For Truth |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
supportlivejazz
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jan 2003
Posts: 3757
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Blue Trane wrote: | | Craig Swartz wrote: | | - some of the more pious members here must be feeling pretty good by now, and I suppose a preponderance of the mods as well for exercising their power to make members follow the rules about being "nice" when it is either politically correct or is inline with the judgement of the mob. Seriously, some of you should be ashamed. |
Quoted For Truth |
Baloney. The guy was a fraud from the get go. All you have to do is read his early post and recall some of the crap he posted as lovevixen555 on the other site and it is clear his agenda was garnering attention.
He would never post anything of his own stuff, no photos, wouldn't answer direct questions. He was a sham and discussion about anything he posted is way off the mark. He was here to get his jollies. Nothing more.
_________________
Conn 6B
1940s Blessing Artist
Olds LA Special Model Cornet
"I'm not apologizing, I am what I am. There'll be no compromising, I don't give a damn." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| supportlivejazz wrote: | | Blue Trane wrote: | | Craig Swartz wrote: | | - some of the more pious members here must be feeling pretty good by now, and I suppose a preponderance of the mods as well for exercising their power to make members follow the rules about being "nice" when it is either politically correct or is inline with the judgement of the mob. Seriously, some of you should be ashamed. |
Quoted For Truth |
Baloney. The guy was a fraud from the get go. All you have to do is read his early post and recall some of the crap he posted as lovevixen555 on the other site and it is clear his agenda was garnering attention.
He would never post anything of his own stuff, no photos, wouldn't answer direct questions. He was a sham and discussion about anything he posted is way off the mark. He was here to get his jollies. Nothing more. |
100% correct.
Brad361
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dmb
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 1305
Location: Anderson, IN
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:23 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Craig Swartz wrote: | | Read more, post less. |
Quoted for posterity.
_________________
Dan Burton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWuX9zPJWyY
-----------------------------------------------
Olds |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
omayarts
New Member
Joined: 19 Dec 2013
Posts: 5
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| supportlivejazz wrote: | | Blue Trane wrote: | | Craig Swartz wrote: | | - some of the more pious members here must be feeling pretty good by now, and I suppose a preponderance of the mods as well for exercising their power to make members follow the rules about being "nice" when it is either politically correct or is inline with the judgement of the mob. Seriously, some of you should be ashamed. |
Quoted For Truth |
Baloney. The guy was a fraud from the get go. All you have to do is read his early post and recall some of the crap he posted as lovevixen555 on the other site and it is clear his agenda was garnering attention.
He would never post anything of his own stuff, no photos, wouldn't answer direct questions. He was a sham and discussion about anything he posted is way off the mark. He was here to get his jollies. Nothing more. |
You are correct about Captain K, but aren't we all here to get our jollies, in one way or another ? I was thinking that he might be crazy like a fox and just posted stuff that he knew would prod and poke at the right people (like you whenever anyone "breaks" the rules, even though you don't run the site or have any authority whatsoever). Some people, like you, just seem to pop up whenever there is conflict and thrive on the misery and problems of others, never helping, but only exacerbating already heated issues. You might be crazy like a fox, also, or maybe just crazy. Doesn't matter, but when people lose money over what one or several idiots say about them, then it moves into the area of real life. I am sure that every person that was thinking of ordering a custom horn from a recent poster will think twice or at least hesitate (or maybe even cancel an order) based on the recent negative comments about his acquisition of universal parts and his build method. No one deserves that. We should all try to keep things positive and try to mind our own business. If something doesn't directly concern us, or we have nothing positive to contribute, we should look for a thread in which we can be a positive source. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
A.N.A.Mendez
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 5227
Location: ca.
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| VetPsychWars wrote: | I don't know how well acquainted you are with web forums in general, but I see you've recently joined this one.
After a while a forum gets to feel like home away from home and the other posters as extended family.
Someone who disturbs that eventually wears out his welcome.
Tom |
yes
_________________
"There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
A.N.A.Mendez
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 5227
Location: ca.
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
??? Really? 
_________________
"There is no necessity for deadly strife" A. Lincoln 1860
☛ "No matter how cynical you get, it's never enough to keep up" Lily Tomlin☚ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jazztrumpet216
Veteran Member
Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 494
Location: Eau Claire, WI
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| VetPsychWars wrote: | It comes down to this... after many years of this puppy pooping on the rugs and incapable of learning not to, he was got rid of.
Simple as that.
Tom |
+1
Sites like TH have a real problem retaining pros- people who earn their living playing trumpet. Kirk is a huge reason why. He sat at his keyboard, throwing people/companies like Bach, Kanstul, Getzen, Trent Austin, Josh Landress, Charlie Melk, and loads more under the bus for years. I saw him lambast several working pros who could play circles around most of us, with him calling them frauds and saying they didn't know what they were talking about. In fact, HE was the fraud. A joke. A farce. A caricature of the typical arrogant, egotistical trumpet player. And he was a cancer to this forum for those of us who would like to see and hear the thoughts of those who know more than we do.
Thankfully, now he is a fart in the wind.
_________________
Kevin Peterson
1940 NY Bach 7/37 — 2009 Bach Philadelphia C — 1972 Bach 37/Melk #3 — 1969 Yamaha 734 — 1961 Mt. Vernon Bach 43 — 2013 Schilke P5-4 B/G — 1990's Getzen Eterna flugel |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brad361
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2007
Posts: 7080
Location: Houston, TX.
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| omayarts wrote: |
.......
You are correct about Captain K, but aren't we all here to get our jollies, in one way or another ? I was thinking that he might be crazy like a fox and just posted stuff that he knew would prod and poke at the right people (like you whenever anyone "breaks" the rules, even though you don't run the site or have any authority whatsoever). Some people, like you, just seem to pop up whenever there is conflict and thrive on the misery and problems of others, never helping, but only exacerbating already heated issues. |
Uh.....no.
The theory that Kirk was just a clever troll who enjoyed poking the TH hornets nest with a stick and watching the ensuing chaos has been mentioned before. I don't believe it. I think he was just a little narcissist with much more time on his hands than knowledge, manners or common sense.
I could not be happier that he's outta here....if in fact he really is. And it has NOTHING to do with free speech, it has to do with civility, manners and consideration of other members.
I'm not clear who you are referring to when you say "people like you", but it's interesting that you would draw the conclusion stated in your last sentence, especially considering your brief tenure here.
Brad361
_________________
When asked if he always sounds great:
"I always try, but not always, because the horn is merciless, unpredictable and traitorous." - Arturo Sandoval |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Craig Swartz
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 7769
Location: Des Moines, IA area
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| jazztrumpet216 wrote: | (...)
Sites like TH have a real problem retaining pros- people who earn their living playing trumpet. (...) |
Well, yeah- I'm hardly in the same league with some around here but I've ended up giving away a lot of good information on TH that I get paid decent money to provide in the studio, orchestra or classroom. Probably more than I've received. And you can add years and years of very practical, hard fought and won real world experience to what ever knowledge a pro might give away here as well- something that the average person cannot buy. Most do so willingly to try to be a help, more often to actually debate differences in opinions, and I've never felt threatened or attacked by anyone here who would disagree with me or my methods. We'll never meet and it's just a matter of opinion until someone actually tries it and succeeds or fails.
Here, you're getting what you pay for, somewhat: Participants acknowledged by the masses throughout the site as "pros", be they players, techs, horn makers, teachers, composers/arrangers and others associated with all things trumpety are actually benefiting from what amounts to additional free advertising and a network of recommendations through the word of keyboard as persons here post good experiences with them and their products. That is a pretty good reason to hang around the unwashed if one is a pro at anything and can benefit by additional work and enhanced income as a result. And we also have come to know that if someone reports a bad experience, depending upon who reports and to whom they refer, they will almost always find willing flamers who weren't there to come to their aid. It's life, people live differently and it'd be a damn boring world if everyone acted throughout their lifetime as the mods (or more likely, the mobs) require around here. Without the dummies how would anyone know who the smart people were? Seriously! Go get your hands dirty. Diversity and tolerance, kids.
(Personally, I still think CK was Dave Monette, Cliff Blackburn or Roy Lawler.  ) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
