I Want to quit!!!

sean007r · Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2002 8:35 pm Post subject:

Well not really, but I needed to get your attention!

So with all the equipment and method books how is someone going to figure out what is best for them???

Long story short, if you don't know who I am already...
35/male/single full time parent of 2
comeback player after 16+ years
quit after high school
OK in HS, played 1st Jr. and Sr. year but usually sat second.
Range then wasn't much past an octave above tuning C and still isn't!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Doing the mouthpiece safari right now, but not helping at all. Had some range improvement when I tried/tested a 13a4a, but suffered tone quality in and below the staff.
I've also tried 7c, 5c, 3c, 14a4a, 15 and now 17d4d per recommendations of Schilkie employee. However, after a month or so, even if there was any improvements, it always seems like I'm back to where I started C-D.
(I stick with each for a month or so)

It is really enough to make a person quit!
I know there isn't a magic answer, but there has to be some specific scientific reasoning to why I can't increase my range.
Maybe I'll never be able to play above C-D
Sure I know most money is made around the staff, but if you are ever going to play full time I would think that you have to have a range that extend past a high F?

I tried the Caruso method with one teacher to no avail.
My current teacher has no suggestions to increasing range except to continue with normal everyday practice and maybe get off the 14a4a I was using. He sid my tone was too thin. I moved to a 15 and he says I sound 100% better, but still nothing past C-D.
If you read Caruso's methods its all about wind power.
and then there are the other guys like Maynard and Arturo that were playing double G's at age 13!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Which brings me back to the beginning...
how is someone going to figure out what is best for them???

_________________
TTFN
~iii<0 Sean 0>iii~

[ This Message was edited by: sean007r on 2002-02-19 23:41 ]

Bill Hicks · Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2002 10:00 pm Post subject:

Read the book "Brass Playing Is No Harder Than Deep Breathing" by Claude Gordon. it is very good at explaining how things work and how to practice. There is no easy way around it. It does takes time and work to train the body what to do and to eliminate old habits. If you have any questions after reading the book I would be glad answer them the best I can.
_________________
Bill Hicks
Claude Gordon student 1970-1987
Harry James Orchestra 1976-1979
American Music Theatre 1997-2008
Big Band Nostalgia 1990-2010
www.billhickstrumpet.com

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

Hi Sean, Air is always your foundation when playing the trumpet or any wind instrument. So developing wind strength and coordination is essential to playing upstrairs with ease.

When you get to G or A above the staff, try lightly anchoring the tip of your tongue between the 2 front lower teeth and let the natural rolling and unrolling of the tongue to occur. This will ensure that you are getting plenty of compression from the rolling foward of the front of the tongue. This will naturally increase airspeed which is needed the higher you play.

The higher you play the faster the airspeed needed with less volume of air. This is why many players cannot get past C or D because they are overblowing the apeture and volume of air.

First learn to play the higher notes lightly and with less volume of air to find where they are in feel. Then later you can increase volume of air and or apeture size.

The another element is contraction toward the center of the mouthpiece when ascending and then gradually away from the center when descending. This helps the apeture size to be efficient without pinching the lips together which will only help to produce a pinched sound. The lips need to be flexible and vibrate freely.

You might consider trying some Monette mouthpieces. They are very easy and fun to play and are very responsive in the upper register.

David
[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2002-02-20 04:30 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2002-10-09 03:26 ]

Zaphod · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2002 3:57 am Post subject:

In my opinion, besides air the development of lip muscles is very important.
Lips can be trained e.g. by slurring ex. like C. Colins "Advanced Lip Flexibilities", or - what i personally like much - by the following (in the middle of my daily routine, before I am too exhausted):
I play about 15 min scale studies for beginners, not higher than g on the staff, but also not lower than c; all this on my picc, one octave higher, until I feel I'm using too much pressure to go on (this means I stop when I fell I'm hurting my lips).
Without any break, I take my nomal trumpet and play lip slurs in the lower register, mf, long slow tones with fast and clear slurs, with emphasis on tone quality and as little pressure as possible. low c-g-c descending to g-d-g. This as building ex., followed by a flexibility ex. with lip slurs in 1/16 to relax the muslcles. (You will feel the need for this relaxaition - done corretly, your muscles will BURN).
Repeat the slurring ex. higher and higher until you aren't able to play without pressure anymore.
Then take a good rest - you deserved it!

To me, this is a good building exercise, because it trains your lips to work under pressure in the high register, and to play without pressure in the low an middle register, and - very important - to avoid pressure even when you're exhausted.

This helps me to build strenght within DAYS - I hope, the ideas can help you, too.
To reach D and beyond surely, you must have at least a good, sure C.

"When you think it's hard, it will be!" - Scott Englebright

Hope this helps,
Hauke

_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:02 am Post subject:

Sean,

One thing to be aware of (from all the advice you're getting) is that tongue manipulations and air speed are NOT universal means by which high notes are achieved. Some players maintain that they are, but, many others (like myself) do not employ those procedures at all and easily play to double C and beyond.

From your own admission, you are learning that it isn't a mouthpiece issue. And, yes, there is a scientific reason why you can't play high.

I'm surprised you haven't visited the Caruso forum with your story. It appears that you have been exposed to the method, but since it didn't work for you I would think you might be wondering why. If you could answer a few questions it would help in understanding your non-success with the method.

1. How long did you practice the Caruso material?
2. Do you have the book "Musical Calisthenics For Brass" by Carmine Caruso?
3. Was your teacher a former student of Mr. Caruso and, if so, how long did he study with him?

There are many teachers who write about Carmine Caruso and many who teach his method that are not clear on the principles on which the method is based. The result is the inevitable misinformation and students, like yourself, who are not successful with the exercises. When practiced correctly, the Caruso calisthenics WILL increase range and endurance noticeably for most in 2-6 months; and significantly in 2 years.

Regards,

Charles Raymond

_________________
Charles Raymond

[ This Message was edited by: bugleboy on 2002-02-20 10:35 ]

big brian · Veteran Member Joined: 06 Nov 2001 Posts: 440

dbacon · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Nov 2001 Posts: 8592

Cozy · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:06 pm Post subject:

The comeback quest begins with proper practice, and I do appreciate that that is difficult with family responsibilities. You can do isometrics, sing, etc., while taking out the trash and hugging the loved ones. Next, instruction and adequate equipment, especially a mpc that "seats."
Beyond that, practice...Alas, more practice...With that I sign off to...practice.

Cozy
http://www.cozychops.com

sean007r · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:13 pm Post subject:

let me reply to everyone....
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
do not take anything too seriously and my intensions are not to upset anyone. I'm just trying to retrieve as much data as possible!!!!

Bill Hicks...
Already read the book plus Clarke's book he recommended, but I guess since there is ssoooo much there I'm not practicing everything/anything.

Quadruple C...
How do you decrease your apeture without pinching your lips.
Have you taken an apeture test?
There is a specific exercise in the Arbans book that Claude Gordon recommends playing with a breath. Allegedly he can play it twice with breathing. I can only do it once. Therefore my apeture is too big, OR, I do not have much breath control!!

Zaphod...
According to Gordon, my current teacher and many others... the lips do NOTHING but vibrate and CANNOT be strengthened.
I'm not saying what you know isn't true, I'd just like to hear more!
Can you expand on your ideas???

bugleboy...

_bugleboy · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2002 12:57 pm Post subject:

Sean,

From what you have told me, there is no question in my mind that you were not being coached correctly with the Caruso exercises. If you care to pursue these exercises correctly, I would suggest that you go to the Caruso forum and read the threads that are already posted there. If you still have questions or comments, please submit them in that forum so that I can keep the Caruso stuff all under one roof as much as possible.

Regards,

Charles Raymond

Quadruple C · Heavyweight Member Joined: 28 Nov 2001 Posts: 1448

Hi Sean, One of the best ways to get the apeture smaller is to practice softly. Practice as much softer volumes as much louder volumes. This way the muscular embouchure can learn the different positions of being more open and being more closed.

If a person practices 1 volume all the time then that is what they will sound like, monotone and without having the embouchure knowing how to move in a flexible way that allows for all levels of expression.

Best Wishes

David

[ This Message was edited by: Quadruple C on 2002-10-09 03:22 ]

Paul.Trumpet · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:15 pm Post subject:

The lips are in the cup of the mouthpiece and the air blows them apart, but they are elastic and come back when the air escapes as the pressure drops minutely and then open again. That is lip buzzing. Maybe you are using too much pressure, but we can't see you play... if you're using enough air then it isn't that. Perhaps you need a smaller diameter and wide rim but without a shallow cup. Schilke 12 and 14 diameter mouthpieces are thought good for beginners - but really, just play on what you can control. Stop driving to achieve so much and get what you already practise perfect, go easy when you have a bad day. Perhaps you are losing lip compression or play out the side of your face, who knows.

I've been sat next to a guy who uses a Schilke 24 in a King Silver Flair tpt tonight playing 2nd/3rd big band charts and I'm twice his size. Seek advice from someone who can see you play and get an easy to play trumpet and mouthpiece that makes a good tone, then try something you can't play and practise it until its right......

Kenman · Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:40 pm Post subject:

If the lips aren't right.. then all the air in the world won't help you play higher. May I ask what your embouchure is like? ie top lip curled or not, mouthpiece on lip tissue or not.. etc..

If you would like to discuss your embouchure.. please email me. I've been teaching youngsters for 15 years.. I think I've worked with just about every kind of embouchure out there....

There are many ways to play the trumpet well.. we just need to find one that works for you.

Ken

sean007r · Posted: Sun Feb 24, 2002 6:55 am Post subject:

Emb_Enh · Veteran Member Joined: 29 Oct 2002 Posts: 455

Hiya!

How are you getting on with your safari these days??

Roddy o-iii<O
_________________
Regards, Roddy o-iii RoddyTpt@aol.com

"E M B O U C H U R E___E N H A N C E M E N T"
BOOK 1 also... BOOK 2 + demo CD

[Self Analysis and Diagnostic Trumpet Method]

sean007r · Posted: Tue May 21, 2002 6:52 pm Post subject:

Safari is all but over for now.
I'm playing on a 17d4d, but realizing that the MP quest is the furthest from my biggest concern right now which is just basic, basic, basic skills!
8th grade _ _ _ _!

To make a long story short...
I'm questioning weather or not I could ever PLAY!
However, I have a "plan" and I'll keep 'ya updated latter.
It involves a "new" teacher, some real goals and a time frame...
_________________
TTFN
Sean
___TTT_c___/|
(_uIII_o__) |

Kenman · Posted: Tue May 21, 2002 7:27 pm Post subject:

Maybe you could try curling in your top lip a little.. make sure it's in front of the teeth NOT curled over the teeth.

This is the way I teach beginners.. top lip curled in slightly, corners firm, chin flat, then blow air through the lips without buzzing .. holding the lips in position.

I would suggest trying this set, blowing air then setting the horn on your embouchure keeping everything exact. Practice blowing air through the horn keeping your top lip curled slightly without making any sounds.. just realize how easy it is to blow the air through the horn.

Next..blow a little harder with lips together a little firmer.. let the air start the sound.

I have a young girl I started last week. She's 12 years old and comes in at about 70pds. Her first not after setting the embouchure and blowing air was an top staff E. Before the lesson was over she had played top line G and open Bb. Of course she had no idea what she was doing.. but the point is that it had everything to do with keeping the buzz close the the muscle.

hope this helps

Roy Boy · Regular Member Joined: 14 Nov 2001 Posts: 14

If you let Kenman lead you into his trap with the Farkas flat chin. You are doomed.. many trumpet teachers see his advice as nothing but a short cut to get students up to par to play little concerts so the band directors can keep their jobs.
My playing was destroyed for many years beleiving in the generic advice like Kenman is offering you.
Spend time with Bugleboy and get the Caruso thing down.

Roy

Kenman · Posted: Tue May 21, 2002 9:53 pm Post subject:

wow .. roy boy thanks for the personal attack.

I'm just trying to help the kid. Seeing that i've been teaching for about 15 yrs and have students doing great with these concepts.. maybe you should keep your attacks to yourself. Just because it didn't work for you doesn't mean it's not working for others.

I'll have kids graduating this weekend that play great with this setup. These students have no problem playing with good sounds, good fingers, good range!! and endurance. Maybe you where doing something else wrong. Maybe your teacher didn't understand the correct way to teach the concepts. Or, maybe it just wasn't going to work for YOU!

Thanks

[ This Message was edited by: Kenman on 2002-05-22 12:20 ]

zachenos · Posted: Wed May 22, 2002 9:27 am Post subject:

Hi,

I spent 5 mins trying to think how I could describe things to you in a post but then realized it is kinda useless without pictures and models since anything I write here can so easily be misunderstood by the reader. That having been said I would recommend that you check out Jeff Smiley's "A Balanced Embouchure" Book, it is pretty easy to follow and full of pictures and such that would defintely help.
On another note, you sound a little annoyed with your current teacher. I don't mean this to sound silly but, I'm sure you are "old" enough to see through BS when you encounter it. For example, if a younger student is studying with a teacher and isn't getting anywhere but the teacher keeps saying, "sounds good, just keep working it will come" then the younger student is much more likely to believe it, often for years... if you feel you are working diligently but not seeing results don't be afraid to try something else. For myself personally, some of the larger leaps in my playing have come after going to a new teacher, not that the previous guy was bad, but maybe the new guy is saying the same thing in a way that makes a little more sense to you.

Zach