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shakuhachi Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2012 Posts: 193
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Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:54 am Post subject: Roots of Leverage |
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regarding:
Quote: | “But, there are remarkable exceptions to this. Both Harry James and Maynard Ferguson, in their younger days, could sail far above the staff, and yet it looked like they weren't even playing. This has led some to believe that a perfectly relaxed embouchure is "the secret," that one must strive to keep facial muscles stationary at all times. However, players who adopt this idea rarely end up playing well, much less as easily as Maynard or Harry. And for good reason. Both of those guys had a leveraged setup at repose. The rest of us don't.“ („Roots of Leverage“ by Jeff Smiley) |
Would like to add another factor again which may take some portion of the stated secret of being successful with a “relaxed” embouchure by nature like for example MF.
In my experience (and I have done BE successful for a while too) when I change to my smaller MF mpc clones (special shallow v-cups, no alpha angel) and relax my lips to a repose position I can easy play – so easy that it barely could be compared when using my normal mpc and embouchure. That is why I periodically come back to this pieces when my lips are stiffened by my “normal” mpc/embouchure setting and every time I am tempted to stay with the MF type embouchure and mpc. But it works only up to high C (but I have had times it goes easy up to double c too!) and only a special amount of time – I am not able to do some usable performance with that until now. Because of that I regularly change back to my “normal” mpc. The MF pieces were used regularly about 1-2 weeks exclusively when I have been come back to them.
So I am regularly in doubt if the MF type embouchure could be developed to a performable degree anyway. In TH there are several guys struggling exact with the same phenomenon. They can go up double c but only for short periods. It is stated too that most guys using MF stuff (MF mpc) in the past did struggle sooner or later with it.
For me the secret of the ability to play relaxed does not relay on kind of a “natural gift” but
on a kind of special movement of the lips within the mpc cup or vice versa the special mpc cup design allows this kind of special movement which seems to be realized in the MF type pieces – as one would use a dynamical narrowing cup when one goes up the registers.
I have done some threats about my theory regarding that topic in TH so far but anyway I am searching after the closing of the riddle. But as said: putting my “normal” embouchure and blowing up double c let me deviate regularly away from my MF experience only to come back later on again and being surprised how effortless trumpet blowing could be (and should be?).
It is kind of a dilemma: one is tempted to take the easy way – what a pity. I think the MF type embouchure and mpc only need more time to develop. But who has that patience like MF? |
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MaryAnn Veteran Member
Joined: 27 May 2008 Posts: 135
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Posted: Sun May 04, 2014 8:00 am Post subject: |
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I see no one has responded to this. I observed a guy on Youtube (no idea who it was, but he was black) doing incredibly high playing with apparent total ease, and concluded that his musculature in the lip inside the cup was able to form an aperture and control it without the need for a lot of facial muscle involvement. I could see this happening but was forced to conclude that it probably was not teachable, at least by him....one of those things he does but didn't figure out ahead of time; I think he discovered it independently and has the physical talent to use it. I would guess it was akin to whistling but he didn't do any "play the note then freeze the chops then take the mpc off and show us what you have" type of thing. If the cup is being used to support the aperture, even lightly, what you see when it is removed is not what is producing the pitch anyway. |
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Tue May 06, 2014 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Hey Shak, I've been using this top lately with great results. Can you do the pencil exercise exactly the way Pops describes in his book 'Chops Builder'? Best, Lex _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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shakuhachi Veteran Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2012 Posts: 193
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:22 am Post subject: |
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Hi Lex,
yes- I have most of Pops literature and specially practiced the
pencil exercise as described. I have done a lot chop building
like isometrics and the Warburton tool, the other
pencil variation as used by Stevens Castello (pencil
between the teeth...)
I come to the conclusion to have to strong chops.
So for me I have to do a lot of relaxation - I am to
close an arperture...confirmed by Roddy and Lynn.
Today I got my GH 560 clone as a screw rim version
from Mark to be able to do the high note buzz
tought by Lynn- with that piece I can do it with
greater diameters like Giardinelly MF 1 like Lynn
I can not....so we will see.... |
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ljazztrm Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Dec 2001 Posts: 2681 Location: Queens and upstate, NY
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Posted: Wed May 07, 2014 9:38 am Post subject: |
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Cool Shak, we've done a lot of the same things.. Also, how about the Pops idea of playing a new note many times to solidify it.. I'm working with this concept way up high above double C.. iDoing 'double e' 100x..then will move on up to F and my goal to be consistent at all the time: triple G.
He;s got the premise laid out here:
You can't learn to control high G if you only play 5 high Fs a day.
60 - 100 high notes is a good number. But it takes a while to get there.
10 Fs a day for a week
20 a day for a week
30
40
50 Fs a day and 10 Gs
60 fs and 20 Gs
70 and 30 (70 + 30 =100)
80 and 40
Change
50 Gs and 10 As (60 notes G or over)
...
Every month you add a note. _________________ Mpcs: Jim New-Manley Jazz1/Jazz2/Jazz4/Lead3. Legends MF1. Reeves 39EX/HV. Frost 39MVD. Flugel: Jim NewMF3. Jim New-Manley F1+F2. Pickett MF. Reeves HF.
Trumpets: THE LYNNZHORN!!/Stomvi Forte pocket
Flugel: Manchester Brass Pro Model
Www.LexSamu.com |
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w00005414 Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Posts: 384
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Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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Hey guys, it's been a while since I've posted here, hope everyone is doing well
Over the past 6 months or so I have totally changed the way I play and have finally broken through a 30+ year plateau.
My take on relaxed playing goes as follows....
- Fast air is a killer, the faster the air the more you have to do at the chops to hold it back...then the more tired you get. From low C to high C my air never moves fast but I am working a lot of air (think expansion in the chest and neck), it actually feels sometimes like I'm breathing in (I know I'm not, but the air is at an equilibrium). My body isn't relaxed, but my chops are pretty relaxed.
- Think of hot slow air (think "haaaa" like fogging up a mirror) instead of "foo" which is cold air caused by tight corners that is super focused. You don't need tight corners to play. You get instant (but unsustainable) results by puckering up .... instead of "making" the lips vibrate, "let" them vibrate.
- Get your lips together inside the mouthpiece...but they shouldn't be jammed together....just setup as if you are not playing, just standing there with your mouth closed. There's a little roll in but nothing crazy. It isn't until above the staff that I do any real work with the muscles inside the mouthpiece.
- This is where I break away from BE, I don't advocate air pockets, my air never travels that fast to need them. I think of playing like screaming with your voice, it's intense as all hell but the air isn't moving fast. It just has a lot of energy. It's a weird concept to wrap your head around but once you experience it, it's a game changer.
- Get your air up in your chest by pulling apart your ribs with your intercostal muscles. Let the volume created in your chest create the note, not fast air. Jeff definitely has something when he talks about the muscles in your shoulder area somehow effecting your breathing. I haven't totally pinpointed it so I just think of pulling my ribs apart and it helps.
- Don't aim your air directly at the opening (throat) of the mouthpiece, instead, aim it somewhere else in the cup. I aim below the mouthpiece throat personally. When you do this it gives you instant feedback, when you aim at the throat the air has to travel a distance (maybe to the first curve in the tuning slide who knows) before it can give feed back to the lips.
I personally play with my shoulders up a little and my head kinda lowered into my neck, for me it makes me feel like I've brought the source of the air (the lungs) closer to the mouthpiece, it's less distance to travel.
Just my two cents _________________ Brian Gibson |
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w00005414 Veteran Member
Joined: 09 Feb 2005 Posts: 384
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Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:23 am Post subject: |
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One other note on this, I tongue well behind the top teeth up on the pallet. If I tongue on the teeth or lower my tongue is too far forward and it causes two problems
1. It slows my tonguing down considerably
2. The air gets too far forward in my mouth and wants to overtake the chops.
the slightly retracted tongue position I use helps keep that air back in my throat to keep it open _________________ Brian Gibson |
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