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Bill Ortiz
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 Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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Chris, I know a good number of excellent jazz players still playing Committees. Ambrose is one...
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'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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Bill Ortiz
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| Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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In regards to endorsements, players like Miles and Diz could any horns they wanted for free. Players with endorsements will pick an instrument that they like because they have to play them on their gigs as part of the deal.
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'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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sounds7
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Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 635
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| Mr.Hollywood wrote: | Blue Mitchell- wound up on a Conn
Roy Eldridge- wound up playing Leblanc, Conn, Benge
Dizzy- Kings, than Schilkes
Chet- Conn, and Bach
Lee Morgan- Conn
And KD- wound up playing a Conn 8B
Pretty Much Miles was the last man standing.
Also, did anybody ever stop to think about the beautiful presentation models that Martin GAVE AWAY to these players for FREE????
I've seen too many pictures of Roy and Diz with heavily gold plated highly engraved (from the bell rim to the mp receiver) Martins. They were noted for giving horns away to almost anybody with some kind of name.
Both Billy Butterfield (one of my early teachers) Dizzy himself and another player named Buzz King told me that they were always getting horns in the mail from Martin.
Just something to ponder.....
Chris LaBarbera |
There is nothing to ponder. Martin was sold and the quality was not at the same level after they sold the company off. This fact can be found all over the internet if you google. Trumpet players moved on when there horns wore out and they needed a new horn because the new offerings were just not like the ones they had been playing. The same thing can be said of many horn companies that could not keep up with the Conn - Selmer monopoly over the years. |
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John Mohan
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Joined: 13 Nov 2001
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Location: Chicago, Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:26 am Post subject: |
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Trumpet Herald member zackh411 has a 1946 Martin Committee which I had the opportunity to try at the 2014 Chicago Trumpet Hang. Granted, I didn't spend a lot of time on it, but it seemed like a good horn to me. No intonation problems, felt nice and the sound was smoky dark. I think it's a large bore, but I'm not positive. Maybe Zack will weigh in here.
In general, what years are considered the best for the Committee?
And hey, Mike, do you really think the 1970's Los Angeles Benges were inconsistent in build quality? I've always found those to be the most consistent Benges. Maybe I misunderstood you.
And yes, as Chris pointed out, everyone knows Mike McGovern. But the real question is, who is John Galt?
Best wishes,
John Mohan |
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adagiotrumpet
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Joined: 31 May 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:45 am Post subject: Re: sounds |
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| mcgovnor wrote: | Mr. Sounds 7.
Perhaps, actually understanding what I wrote, and responding as if reading was a... first language..would render whatever you've written applicable, to anything. Having played on million seller recordings and award winning jingles, on my first Broadway show at 19, (Promises Promises) on McCoy Tyners Big Band and thousands of recording sessions, sitting next to many of the greatest players, and unique players, in the world, from Alan Rubin, to Jon Faddis, to Bernie Glow, to Mel Davis, to Earl Gardner, to Al Porcino, to Charles Sullivan and hundreds of others you still hear every day not one, not a jazz player, a studio player, a legit player, played a Martin Committee. Only two musicians I knew, Lyn Nicolsen, not a jazz player in the least, with whom I played on Thad Jones Mel Lewis band, but a screaming high note player, and Manny Duran, with whom I played for Machito, played Martin, both large bore, one a Deluxe, the other a straight number 3. Of the dozens I played, two played ok. The rest were sub standard in every regard. Scale, response, pitch, sound, over all playability. A number of Jazz greats, played Martin trumpets, for a little more than a decade..like it or not, that is a fact. A fact. They moved on, because they found horns that played better, and the mystique, was shattered when the dream and the dope..did I say that..??  got old. I chased the Martin Mystique after playing one of Miles horns, at Howard Magee's house, in 1969. For years, I looked in shops, called people, traced and chased and bought and sold. I actually lost gigs playing in sections with guys who just saw the horns..and looked at you cock-eyed. If anyone is lucky enough to find one that really plays, great. I had one I loved. But most other people didn't like it, in a section. My ex father in Law, Stan Getz, used to say it sounded beautiful..like a cross between a french horn and a flugelhorn. But that was one out of dozens. As far as an everyday horn, because of the horrible inconsistency..kind of like a fiat 124, of trumpets, I would never point any trumpet player in that direction. It's simply not a helpful thing, is not wise or practical. Every player should find a horn, not because it was popular at a time, or another player sounds great on it..but because it works best, for what they do, for them. Whatever it is. Now..as far as the comments you made regarding my intelligence, or lack thereof, and as I've read what you have to say about trumpet playing, trumpets, and about me..if you're playing, as an old teacher used to say, is a reflection of your thinking..I'd suggest you practice your horn, and keep your mouth shut. And thanks Mr. Hollywood, for pulling my coat this morning, and for speaking up. I know, you really loved the Martin as well.. Maybe we should find another..hobby:) |
Drop any more names, and you might crash this site. What does your resume have anything to do with whether or not the original Martin Committee was or was not a great horn? No one, to my knowledge, has made a one-size-fits-all trumpet. Different horns work differently in different situations and for different people. Is the Martin Committee a unique instrument? In my opinion yes. That's why I own one. Can it be used in all or most situations? Not for me. Is it the best horn for a particular situation? For me, sometimes. Does this make it a good or bad instrument? Absolutely not. Are these classic horns inconsistent? Probably so. But then again, so are Bachs, Benges, Conns, Bessons, etc. So what. This in no way make them bad brands. Calicchios were famously insonsistent. So what. The other thing to remember is that just because a particular model or a particular brand is inconsistent doesn't mean that different players don't gravitate to different horns for different reasons.
Come on guys, lighten up. If you don't like a particular brand or model of an instument, don't play it. Play something else. But don't pass judgement on a horn you don't like or on someone who plays something you don't like. |
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sounds7
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Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 635
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:05 am Post subject: |
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| John Mohan wrote: | Trumpet Herald member zackh411 has a 1946 Martin Committee which I had the opportunity to try at the 2014 Chicago Trumpet Hang. Granted, I didn't spend a lot of time on it, but it seemed like a good horn to me. No intonation problems, felt nice and the sound was smoky dark. I think it's a large bore, but I'm not positive. Maybe Zack will weigh in here.
In general, what years are considered the best for the Committee?
And hey, Mike, do you really think the 1970's Los Angeles Benges were inconsistent in build quality? I've always found those to be the most consistent Benges. Maybe I misunderstood you.
And yes, as Chris pointed out, everyone knows Mike McGovern. But the real question is, who is John Galt?
Best wishes,
John Mohan
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I will reply in part with a quote from the Grandson of Fred Holt in a n email he sent to me. His Grandfather ran the sales department during Martins best years.
| Quote: | | My name is Chris and my Grandfather Fred Holtz was President of Martin Band Instruments thru the 30's and 40's. He joined the Company in 1921 as Sales Manager. Despite other common information on the web, in 1928, Martin's owner and G.M. Orville Bassett and my Grandad created The Indiana Band Instrument Company in an effort to market their product to a wider audience. Though primarily a paper company, IBICO was a channel for horns, made in the Martin plant by the same craftsmen who produced the Martin Committee, targetted to those not able to afford the high end product. Conn did the same with their Pan American line, and likewise, Buescher with Elkhart Band Instruments. Generally, rather than a lower quality horn, these instruments were retired models from prior years brought back to life and sold a a lower cost. The Indiana (later Indiana Chieftan)line used a separate serial number ledger than the Martin-labeled horns. This ledger can be seen here: "The Martin Story - Serialnumberlist" under the 'range2' category. I should add that, in 1942 as the plant was switched over to war production, Martin dropped the Indiana Band Instrument Company label and tagged the postwar horns as "Indiana by Martin". The line continued, however, into the 60's until the failed purchase by RMC in 1963. I do not know if under the Wurlitzer name, any further Indiana production went forward. |
From Wikepedia
| Quote: | The Martin company from 1912 to 1971[edit]
For the next forty years the company had a number of presidents. During this time the Martin Committee trumpet was introduced. Then in 1961 Paul E. Richards combined Martin, E. K. Blessing, and F.A. Reynolds to create the Richards Music Corporation. This arrangement fell apart in 1964. The rights to the Martin trademark were taken over by Wurlitzer, and the Martin factory became a division of Wurlitzer in Elkhart. In 1971 the rights to Martin were bought by Leblanc, and Wurlitzer closed the old Martin factory. Leblanc chose to continue to use the Martin trademark on some lines of instruments. |
I would say that true Martin products and the quality that they were known for ended with that RMC Wurlitzer buy out in 1960's. The best years for the Committee model is considered to be the 1940s
http://www.dallasmusic.org/gearhead/Martin%20Committee.html
| Quote: | History
According to Richard Dundas in his book, Twentieth Century Brass Musical Instruments in the United States,
The "Martin" label has always been associated with high quality and limited production, promoted by a devoted group of professional players honestly convinced that Martin instruments had characteristics unmatched by any other brand.
According to his great granddaughter, John Heinrich Martin was born on February 24, 1835 in Dresden Germany He learned to make instruments in Germany as an apprentice. In 1855 he emigrated to the United States, and, in 1865, he moved to Chicago. He founded the "The Martin Company" that same year.
In 1871 his factory was destroyed by a fire in Chicago, sources are in conflict about whether it was The Great Chicago Fire, or not. His great grandaughter, Jane Hunter Parker, believes it was. He then moved to Elkhart, Indiana in 1876 and became the 6th employee of C.G. Conn Company, where he worked until his health forced him to retire in 1902. A second company called "The Martin Band Instrument Company" was founded in 1904 (some sources claim 1906) by the John Heinrich (by now Henry) Martin and his five sons of John Martin. They opened a factory at 431-433 Baldwin Street in Elkhart. John Henry Martin died in 1910.
In 1912, Francis Compton became controlling partner by buying the company from the Martin family in 1912. From 1919 until 1931, O. P. Basset was the president of the company. Henry Charles Martin, John Henry's oldest son, continued to work for the company until 1923.
In 1928, Martin acquired controlling interest in The Indiana Band Instrument Company, which operated as a separate company until 1942, when it moved under the flag of Martin to become the producer of student line instruments, a strong and growing market at that time.
The Company was led by Fred Holtz from 1931 until 1948. It was in the late 30s that the famous Martin Committee was designed. Concerning the role of Renold Schilke in the design of the Committee, Wallace Roney says:
I met Mr. Schilke through John Faddis. Mr. Schilke was going to fix my Martin Magna. He stopped me and said, "Let me see who made this horn." Then he said "ah yes, these are mine, the ones I made, not the other guys," (meaning Leblanc). He said, "Yes I will fix this horn." He proceeded to show me step by step how he made the horn with a cornet leadpipe, tapered tuning slide, and a fast taper in the bell-tail to the flair. He also told me that he was the one who designed the Martin Committee in 1939, and proceeded with the horn, well into the 60's, up the point when Schilke started making his own horns, which I believe he started in 1956. He also believed his Schilke horns had improvements on the Committee design. Although he made special horns for special people that had these same improvements under the Martin Committee and Magna name. And believe me, in 1981, he was still extremely proud of those horns (the Martins from 1940-65).
From 1948 to 1960 Robert Stahl was the Company president.
It is generally believed that the quality of Martin products eroded after 1956 -- in an interview Chet Baker spoke about switching to a Connstellation at that time because a trip to the Martin factory did not yield a good horn.
In 1961, Paul Richards formed the Richards Music Corporation by purchasing and merging Martin, Blessing and Reynolds. During this period Martins carry an RMC marking, which officially stood for Roundtable of Musical Craftsmen, not Richards Music Corporation.
Dizzy Gillespie played Martins into the RMC era and it was in this period when a production model Dizzy style horn was available. The Smithsonian has a RMC Committee that Dizzy owned.
In 1963, Richards Music was dissolved and a year later, Wurlitzer, who apparently had financed RMC, ended up with the assets of Martin, including registered trademarks, copyrights, patents, engineering records and tooling and maintained production for a short time. At roughly that same time, the F.E. Olds & Son Co purchased the assets of Reynolds and moved manufacturing of those designs to Fullerton, California.
In 1971 Leblanc (the French woodwind company that had recently merged with Holton) took over the Martin assets, moving them to Kenosha, Wisconsin. After Leblanc bought the company, the Committee trumpet was discontinued for a time, however the company specially made Miles Davis, loyal throughout his life to the Committee, a supply of one -off Committees during this time..
During their early ownership LeBlanc primarily used the the Martin name to sell Yanigasawa Japanese built saxes. Subsequently the Committee trumpet was redesigned and introduced and medium large and large bore models were produced. They were available in silver plate, clear lacquer, and in various colored lacquers (blue, black, and red) with gold-plated slides, trim and deluxe engraving.
In October 2004, LeBlanc/Holton was purchased by Conn-Selmer, Inc., the musical conglomerate owned by Steinway, that now includes Bach, Selmer USA, King, Conn, Benge, LeBlanc, Holton and Martin. In 2008, Conn-Selmer discontinued the Martin name and the product line. Martin is no more.
Models
The earliest model I've been able to find is the Superlative Dansant, courtesy of Bill Adam in Dallas, with a serial manufacturing date of around 1912, He described his horn as follows
the most unusual feature of the horn is the tuning, which is by means of a flugelhorn-style tuning bit. This allows 2 9/16" tuning adjustment, minus 1/2" for the slot, which allows the tuning to be locked by means of a split collar and thumb screw device, like a typical flugelhorn or piccolo trumpet. The slide at the end of the leadpipe (the conventional tuning slide position) is actually the Quick-change to A, and uses a threaded split ring on the lower tubing as the stop. The threaded part of the ring is only 3/16", so that's all you have to tune the 'A'. Another cute feature is an adjustable pinkie ring for the right hand. It is a ring affixed to a movable split collar around the leadpipe, secured by another thumb screw. It moves thru about a half inch. You can't get it off due to bracing. The horn has an inside diameter at the 2d valve slide of .413". It is satin silver with gold inside the bell, and other than wear at contact points, it is otherwise in good shape. It plays well, a bit bright, as was the style for trumpets in that day.
The Dansant was a popular model of the 1920s. With a medium bore, it has some playing characteristics of the later Martin models but has a little too much cylindrical tubing for modern taste. Some models had a rotary valve, common in the era, for Bb/A adjustment (for a photo of such a model, go here). There were also horns designed for playing in C/Bb/A but they require a separate set of crooks or hash marks (crooks set for C and pull out for Bb/A). In the 1920s Bunny Berrigan played a Martin Dansant before switching to Conn.
The Troubadour was a model of the 1930s. A "pea-shooter" model, common for it's time, it has a smaller bore and a long narrow design. The valves were bottom sprung and has lots of great art-deco type design details. For some great pictures, go here.
I have also heard of pre-Committee models with names like Superlative Handcraft (from the 20s) and New Symphony (1932), but have no other information. If you do, please let me know.
The Martin Handcraft Imperial was the top of the line until 1939. Upon the introduction of the Handcraft Committee at that time, the Imperial became a student grade horn.
There was also a Martin Standard model which coexisted with the Committee until 1945, when it was discontinued. For pictures, go here. Notice the similarities to the Committee.
Committee
In 1939, the Committee Handcraft, a company trade name at that time, was Introduced and became the top of the line. It was made with standard type water keys. These horns are identical to the later models except for the water keys, and play well, but are not as desirable because they lack the look of the more popular later horns. For pictures of Ted Carson's beautiful 1940 Handcraft Committee, go here.
Here is picture of the slightly later Committee, with the famous water keys (along with the rare first valve trigger).
From the 1938 Martin catalog, introducing the Handcraft Committee:
Designed and built for YOU--to enhance YOUR playing and permit YOU to do the fullest justice to your ability and talent. The Committee--composed of player artists of symphony, radio and recording studio orchestras, dance bands, military and concert bands--who in collaboration with Martin craftsmen designed this trumpet, thought of everything and overlooked nothing in order to insure perfection of the instrument. To appreciate it, you must actually play it in regular routine.
DON'T LOOK!!--LISTEN!!
Don't look for "gadgets" because there are none. You will, however, find the traditional Martin craftsmanship incorporated in a trumpet of startling beauty. Listen for a tone of true trumpet character; resonant and bold (Ren Schilke with Chicago Symphony playing AIDA, etc.) Experience the flexibility which permits from this same instrument a quality as tender as a caress (Rafael Mendez playing DARK EYES, etc.) Listen to faultless intonation throughout all registers (Charlie Spivak, Kurt Schmeisser, Dana Garrett, Fred Berman, etc.) Test the response; the slightest attack produces tone but yet, you can give it all you've got and it will "take it" (Bunny Berigan, Charlie Teagarden, etc.) Actually, everything you could possibly want is built right into the Committee Martin. Mechanically, it's equally satisfying; the valve action is the finest ever--light, positive, fast and dependable. Listen to Rafael Mendez play "Flight of the Bumblebee"; no action but the very finest could keep pace with his technique. Pumps are made of a new alloy which will never discolor or corrode if a high grade oil is used as recommended.
EXCLUSIVE FEATURES
Martin built by the most skilled artist craftsmen in the band instrument industry! Designed to the specifications of top-notch players! Tested and retested during actual performances on the concert stage, in rehearsal halls, radio and recording studios, ballrooms, hotels and cafes! It's a trumpet built for sincere trumpet players who possess the ability to recognize and appreciate true musical and mechanical excellence.
The Committee came in the following bores:
a small bore, #1 (0.445)
medium bore #2 (0.451), sometimes designated with a star above the serial number
extra large bore #3 (0.468).
The most popular horns were the medium bore and the extra large bore. It is rumored that a medium large bore (0.460) horn was made, but they are very scarce, if they exist at all.
The Committee had solid nickel valves with hard nickel plating.
Instruments with serial numbers between 140,000 and 210,000 are apparently the most valued but good horns were produced later and earlier than those dates.
The bell engraving was very stylish.
A Dizzy Gillespie version with the upturned bell was also made and are currently worth double the standard bell configuration. For pictures of this, go here. Dizzy played Committees before he bent the bell. For pictures of one that might have been his (it has his named engraved on it), go here. I've never seen a trumpet as heaviliy engraved as that one.
A Deluxe version of the Committee was also made with nickel silver slides and parts. Some Committees also have extensive artistic engraving. For pictures of Bill Faust's beautiful gold plated 1949 Committee with amazingly ornate engraving, go here.
The Committee dominated the post war jazz world. Committees were played, at least at some point in their careers, by: Chet Baker (large bore, early in his career), Bill Chase, Miles Davis (whose loyalty to the horn is almost magical), Clifford Brown, Conte Candoli, Art Farmer, Maynard Ferguson (the MF Horn by Holton is thought to be based on the #3 bore Committee), Dizzy Gillespie, Al Hirt, Blue Mitchell, Lee Morgan, Red Rodney, and Clark Terry. The popularity of these older horns remain. Currently, light jazz player and Sting collaborator Chris Botti plays a 1939 large bore Handcraft Committee (his own website misidentifies the model) and Wallace Roney , as he explains below, plays both classic Committees and the modern versions.
Perry D´Andrea describes the features of the classic Committee and attempts to understand its popularity.
The old Committee has a warm-dark-amber-glow to the sound that no other horn can come close to duplicating. There's no other horn out there, new or old, that plays quite like a Committee. Some of the brand new pro horns of various makes have a "fatter" sound, that new, fat, spread-out, big-bottom sound with a biting, projecting edge that bounces off the back wall, that almost ALL new pro horns have. It almost has a cliched commercial quality to it, it's become so rampant now. And it has less density. That sound is nothing like the much denser yet still rounded warm, pancakes on the griddle in the back room sound of the Committee.
As I understand it, the unique feature of the older Committees that was so much dug by the vintage jazz players was the fact that the Committees did NOT slot well. Rather than bite into a pitch, the Committees easily slid up and down on a pitch. I feel that about my 1949 Committee and use it for that effect. Players, like Miles, who loved to manipulate individual pitches, naturally gravitated to the Committee. Of course, that's the same feature that others describe as difficult intonation.
Wallace Roney describes a couple of Committees from Miles Davis' collection:
I have two of Miles Davis's horns of these vintages. One is an all copper Committee, black and copper color with a medium bore that progresses to a large bore. I also have a blue one that is a RMC Martin. It starts at . 342 in the leadpipe, at the end of the leadpipe, is . 453, the tuning slide, tapers to 460. The end of the tuning tube, is 462, and through the valves, it's 468 and the bell-tail is . 474. This is an amazing horn--it's all brass, but the inner slides are all nickel/silver. I've been trying to find another horn like that all my life, but can't seem to find one, because I do not take this horn out, although I've used it on some of my best recordings. Although both horns play magnificently, I've been trying to find one just like this particular Martin Committee. I've also seen a photo of Dizzy Gillespie playing this same vintage only with a solid silver bell, and no it wasn't his King trumpet.
Although primarily thought of as a jazz trumpet, there were a number of orchestral players and recitalists, including Armando Ghitalla, who also played the Committee, especially prior to the Bach C trumpet dominance of recent times.
The Martin Committees made by Holton/LeBlanc:
Dave Miller, who loves and knows as much about Committees as anybody, has this to say about the last version of the Committee:
The main difference is the leadpipe/crook configuration, particularly its bore. With the older Martin, the bore expands as it makes the curve of the main tuning slide. Now I see Callet and others using this design. With the new Martin, the bore remains the same. Leadpipe-to-bell bracing is pretty much the same. However, the brace within the two receivers of the #1 slide are gone. The back bell bow on the new Martin is not as round as the original Martin. The newer Martin bell is slightly larger too.
The location of the water key nipple is now located where most manufacturers position theirs. The original Martin's were more to the side (and higher), and resulted in a "spitty" sound quicker than most horns, since the moisture could not collect in the nipple. You'll hear Miles "get wet" quite often in his older recordings. By installing Amado water keys on my horn, I guess it comes closer to the original, at least as far as spittiness in sound is concerned.
And of course, the pistons are different. I prefer the monel of the new, but here's what gets me about Holton-made products--the blasted valve stems. The valve stems of the new Martin (as well as most Holtons) are nickel plated brass. The action would be so much quicker if Holton would tool some anodized aluminum valve stems for some of their products besides their student horns. Unfortunately, those particular stems will not fit on the Martin or MF horns. Bach stems will not fit either. The lighter weight of the aluminum stems could really make this horn take off, in my opinion. As it is now, valve action is "weighty". This is one thing I am still trying to get right on my newer Martin.
The real question should be "How does the sound compare to the original?". In my case, I really love the sound, and believe it or not, on some classical things, like the Charlier. The new Martin has several characteristics of the old. One is the slight distortion on the lower end. You can really hear this when slurring from low C to D. The vibrations set up in the horn interfere with the tone. This is a classic feature however. Listen to some Miles and you'll hear what I am talking about. I am of the belief that it is the light bracing of the bell that causes this distortion. It is also this light bracing that caused one famous trumpet player to end up playing an upswept bell Committee after someone tripped over his horn. Martin produced several of these horns for Dizzy and his band after the accident.
The pure tone of the new Martin is quite nice. Response is a bit different than the old ones, but in my opinion, it is more even.
The two things that I think would improve the newer Martin would be:
Go back to the original design and configuration of the leadpipe and tuning slide.
Give me a quicker valve action. Throw away all those tooled brass stems and go aluminum.
Renold Schilke, towards the end of his life, also noticed the differences in the then newly released Holton/LeBlanc version. As Wallace Roney tells the story,
Mr. Schilke met Larry Ramirez [the designer of the new Committee] at [Schilke's] last Brass Conference before he died [in 1982], and in his usual gruff way strolled over to the Martin booth, and said "let me see what you all did with my trumpets! " He looked at it, felt the outside of the horn and it's tubing, looked at Larry and said, "Boy, you all really messed up my horn, you all don't know what you are doing over there." Larry humbly said to him, "Master Schilke, I humbly respect you, can you please tell me what I'm doing wrong?" Mr. Schilke smiled, and put his arm around him, took him in the back, and told him everything for hours.
The next day, Mr. Schilke would visit Larry's booth, and he stated "you're going to be all right kid." He told Larry that he also used to work for Holton, but the Martin Committee was his pride and joy until he started making his own horns.
LeBlanc/Holton announced in 2004 that they had recently measured the trumpet of "smooth" jazzer Chris Botti, a vintage Committee, and they planned to introduce into production a copy of that early Martin Committee model. Perhaps the deficiencies of the current LeBlanc Committee model would have been the rectified. However, the disappearance of Martin from the Conn-Selmer product line in 2008 ends those hopes.
And finally, custom trumpet maker Roy Lawler has historically had a model based on the Committee in his catalog. He now has yet a new version called the Lawler Committee (model C7), which is certainly worth investigating if you are looking for a modern interpretation of the classic trumpet.
Interestingly, the Committee was also made in the key of C, though I can't imagine that there are many of them around. As few as there may be, however, here are pictures of one. I've been told that Amando Ghittala played one.
There were also Committee cornets (pictures here) and a Committee flugelhorn, a truly weird design, but not so weird that Miles Davis didn't play one on the classic big band recordings made with Gil Evans (pictures here).
Magna
The Magna was introduced in 1955 and shared top of the line honors with the Committee. There is little apparent difference between the Magna and the Committee except the Magna had a copper bell, a brace on the tuning slide, Bach-like third valve slide stop rod, and conventional water keys, like the Handcraft Committee above. In contrast, the Committee had those "hip," in Wallace Roney's words, S-braces, and the trombone like water keys.
Kenny Dorham played a Magna from 1958 through 62. Mic Gillette of Tower of Power fame also played a Magna. Carl Dershem tells me that the Magna that Mic Gillette played was somewhere between the Committee and Magna. They made 48, of which 42 had a .470 bore, and the other 6 were .484. All had a 6" bell,and the brace between the tuning slide and bell was removed.
There was even, at least towards the end, a Magna C trumpet which was designed to be played in orchestras. it featured a rose brass bell and a first valve trigger.
Martin Mouthpieces: Martin also made a few unique mouthpieces. For pictures, go here.
Serial Number Lists
There seems to be some controversy about this, mostly because the most common list, found at Lars Kirsmer's Music Trader, seems to be so wrong.
The list found at Edwin van Druten's Martin sax site seems to be much much closer based on everything I've seen.
The quick and dirty way, according to Dave Johnson, is to divide the serial number by 4000 and add that number to 1906 to get an approximate date of manufacture. It is pretty close.
There is also another list, provided me by Jon Lisbeth, assembled earlier by a group of Committee owners, that is apparently the state of the art, as far as it goes. This pretty much agrees with the Dutch sax guy's list.
1919: 17200 (This is the earliest that can be verified according to LeBlanc)
1921: 34100 - 40609
1922: 40610 - 47118
1923: 47119 - 53627
1924: 53628 - 60136
1925: 60137 - 66645
1926: 66646 - 73154
1927: 73155 - 79663
1928: 79664 - 86172
1929: 86173 - 92681
1930: 92682 - 99190
1931: 99191 - 105700 Calculated average: 1921 - 1931: 6509 horns/year
1932: 105701 - 108724
1933: 108725 - 111747
1934: 111748 - 114770
1935: 114771 - 117793
1936: 117794 - 120816
1937: 120817 - 123839
1938: 123840 - 126862
1939: 126863 - 129885
1940: 129886 - 132908
1941: 132909 - 135931
1942: 135932 - 138954
1943: 138955 - 141977
1944: 141978 - 145000 calculated total: 1932 - 1944 = 3023 horns/year
There's another list from Rob Stewart in Arcadia, CA that's pretty close and adds about 19 years.
1919 17221
1920 19482
1921 19933-23781
1922 29942
1923 34838
1924 40644
1925 48489-54853
1926 62852-72051
1927 79204
1928 86687
1929 92536
1930 98324
1931 101622
1932 105096
1933 106546
1934 108301
1935 111253
1936 116551
1937 118038
1938 126998
1939 132070
1940 136040
1941 140199
1942 144455
1943 145322
1944 000000
1945 145352
1946 154289
1947 161520
1948 165326
1949 170395
1950 172215
1951 175140
1952 179317
1953 183125
1954 187614
1955 193747
1956 194213
1957 201809
1958 203917
1959 205377
1960 209089
1961 211675
1962 213999
1963 218855
1964 700000
I'm indebted to the following for their contributions and I'm exceedingly grateful for them: Bill Adam, David Brewer, Ted Carson, Carl Dershem, Jeff Helgeson, Douglas Kerr, Jon Lisbeth, Richard Mason, David Miller, Rich Moore, Jane Hunter Parker, Bob Pucci, Wallace Roney, Marek Skwarczynskii, Anna Smith, and Toby Wolpe. |
Last edited by sounds7 on Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| sounds7 wrote: | | Chris Botti etc. I really don't find the intonation that bad on mine actually even in a section |
I have seen Chris state that he hates his horn for this reason, that it's so much work to play it in tune. But worth it for the sound. |
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scipioap
Veteran Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2012
Posts: 368
Location: Waltham, MA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| sounds7 wrote: | | Despite other common information on the web, in 1928, Martin's owner and G.M. Orville Bassett and my Grandad created The Indiana Band Instrument Company in an effort to market their product to a wider audience. Though primarily a paper company, IBICO was a channel for horns, made in the Martin plant by the same craftsmen who produced the Martin Committee, targetted to those not able to afford the high end product. Conn did the same with their Pan American line, and likewise, Buescher with Elkhart Band Instruments. Generally, rather than a lower quality horn, these instruments were retired models from prior years brought back to life and sold a a lower cost. The Indiana (later Indiana Chieftain) line used a separate serial number ledger than the Martin-labeled horns. This ledger can be seen here: "The Martin Story - Serialnumberlist" under the 'range2' category. I should add that, in 1942 as the plant was switched over to war production, Martin dropped the Indiana Band Instrument Company label and tagged the postwar horns as "Indiana by Martin". |
Great post, Brian! I just happened to pickup one of those IBICO Indianas, from ~1941, as my backup, and trainer for the kids:
VINTAGE ELKHART INDIANA TRUMPET SERIAL #24675 MUSICAL INSTRUMENT
_________________
1963 Martin Committee #3
1962 Martin Committee Cornet #3
1961 Martin Custom Committee C
1941 Martin HC Committee #2
1945 Martin Committee #2
1942 Martin HC Committee Cornet
1941 Martin IBICO Indiana
2012 Kanstul 1525 SLB
1977 Olds CT Flugel |
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sounds7
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 635
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | | sounds7 wrote: | | Chris Botti etc. I really don't find the intonation that bad on mine actually even in a section |
I have seen Chris state that he hates his horn for this reason, that it's so much work to play it in tune. But worth it for the sound. |
I don't know that I was talking about my horn not being that far out. I haven't played on Botti's we did trade emails once about our fondness for the large bore Martin but this was before he played with sting and made it to fame. He didn't mention it then maybe he had a different Martin then. I don't know. |
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rmacklem
Regular Member
Joined: 10 Dec 2011
Posts: 21
Location: Toronto, ON Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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Well how my little thread has grown!!
Thanks everyone for your input. Some great players weighing in here.
As many of you, I have owned way too many trumpets in my life.
Maybe I'll weigh in a little more with my own story…
I have owned Martins, Conns (almost all the Elkhart models), Benges, NY Bachs, Early Elkhart Bachs, Olds horns, Yamaha, and tried almost everything under the sun. My favourite horn for 4 years was the Conn 8B lightweight artist. It is easy to play, gets a nice big sound with overtones, and has great intonation. My one issue with it was that it is difficult to play accurately with the same big sound above high C. I like to use that register as a soloist, and need to when playing lead. Because of this I had to switch horns often to something that was more dependable upstairs depending on what type of work I was doing. The 38B, and even the 36B Connstellation are FAR more secure up there, but just didn't have the same sound. Also, for me, all of the Conns have a 'limit' to their tonal spectrum…I was attracted to the 8B because it is more tonally flexible; closer to the Committee in this way.
Martins always were in the back of my mind as I always liked the flexibility of tone that the Med. bores had, but found then too tight up high and also found that the sound was too narrow. When hanging with my friend Jim Manley in St. Louis back in January, he let me try his MF Firebird. The Firebird is built on a LB Martin valve block. Though the horn for obvious reasons was not really for me, there was something about the way it played and felt that got me interested. MF played a LB Martin, apparently introduced Miles to them, and played horns based on that design for most of his career. Now I do certainly know that a the horn DOES NOT make the player, but I was curious as I play smaller mouthpieces, and many players over the years including Maynard used a small/Mpc, large horn combo.
I purchased my #3 Martin from Josh Landress and he was kind enough to give me a trial on the horn…I had a hunch that it might give me what I wanted…it did. Josh was very helpful in calming my fears. I explained my needs and he gave his honest opinion. I was even open to other horns. One thing Josh mentioned that I thought was very interesting was that Committees are unusually delicate horns, and if are repaired improperly (which many have been) they will play poorly.
My goal was to find a horn that was more tonally flexible and a little 'darker' sounding than my 8B, and more open in the upper register, mostly to be used for jazz playing. What I have ended up with is the previous mentioned PLUS a horn that screams when I put in my lead piece…fun! Their are very few 'issues' tuning wise on my Martin, no more than any trumpet I've owned, and less than some. I have had no issues blending in a section either.
_________________
Russ Macklem
Custom Calicchio
Custom Bob Reeves Mouthpieces
Pre-War F. Besson flugel |
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razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:26 pm Post subject: |
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That's great to have all that in 1 axe! I would think Josh Landress having gone through it has something to do with it  |
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Retlaw
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 3263
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:55 am Post subject: |
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I have had two Committees.... both deluxe..one medium and one number 3 LB. If you believe the Committees are rubbish tack then I must have been lucky. I am no way in the same league of some players here but I can read a tuner and it is the first device I use when considering a trumpet. I also use the ears of people I trust and both these horns were in tune and sounded great in a small group jazz situation. If that is where you live then these horns were amazing....
At the time I found myself playing in a variety of situations including church, small group jazz and a duo in a pub. I then started to play in a big band as well and at that point I tested a B6. The rest is history...the Committees are gone. The B6 does it all for me and has so many similarities that I have no regret.
Are Committees for everyone? Of course not .... but they do have a big following and I think it is justified. I enjoyed mine immensely when I had them..
Walter
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"Amazing how many people listen with their eyes."
"Life is short....play nice." |
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sounds7
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 635
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 8:44 am Post subject: |
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I would suggest to someone who is looking to purchase a Martin Committee to try to find one with serial numbers between 140,000 and 210,000. These were built when the top craftsmen were there at Martin and before the company began decline in the mid 50's. (See Chet Baker quote above) If you look at a horn outside these serial numbers then it could be likely to have an experience similar to what poster mcgovern expressed. The quality was not consistent beyond those years. Yes you can still find a player but it becomes harder and harder to weed out.
Where is Martin now? The tooling to make the horns was sent to California to olds. I wonder if Kanstal got any of that when Olds folded? And the name Martin may never again appear on an instrument because it is owned by the same company that has bought out all the other competition just to close its shops doors. Conn-Selmer the makers of Bach own Martin now and have discontinued the brand. |
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razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:36 am Post subject: |
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| It would be interesting to see someone intimately familiar with playing a "good" Committee review the Adams A9. Or even the Harrelson Summit. |
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sounds7
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 635
Location: New Orleans
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| razeontherock wrote: | | It would be interesting to see someone intimately familiar with playing a "good" Committee review the Adams A9. Or even the Harrelson Summit. |
I will have my Summit soon hopefully. Its in my sig but Jason has had it in the works for 19 months now. When it is in my hands I would gladly A-B for you but the thing with Jason's horns is he has so many configurations of bells and Lead pipes, His designs are wide ranging. The closest one to the committee would be his #4 lp with maybe his #8 bell |
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razeontherock
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 10609
Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 10:18 am Post subject: |
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| I didn't tinker with different configurations. I picked up his stock "jazz" version, and liked it. 4 lp (his copy of a Bach 7 I only found out recently) 7 bell. What did you go with? |
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Bill Ortiz
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 904
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:00 am Post subject: |
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A trumpet teacher of mine once said something that was very wise-
"Don't fall in love with what kind of trumpet you play-it's just a tool."
_________________
'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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mcgovnor
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Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 2607
Location: ny ny
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 11:09 am Post subject: adagio |
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| mr...adagio..have mercy. If you read my original post, you may actually understand what I was attempting to get across. It has nothing to do with names or recordings or bands. It has to do with a mystique that has nothing to do with the general quality of the Martin trumpet, and more importantly, the hope of sounding like anyone who played on the horn, because you own one. A players ability is hinderered by the mystique factor. It has no relation to reality, whatsoever. Chuck Findley played a great Calicchio 1s2..and thousands of horns were sold because of the mystique..but most of the horns were and are sub standard. It's a fact. Same regarding Martin. Players move away from the horns when they realize, their sound and facility, their cash flow and progress, their ability to express themselves better served on another instrument. It's called, growing up. Players in LA AND NY, AND MOST EVERY MAJOR CITY IN THE WORLD, GRAVITATE TOWARD (sorry caps a mistake) one major manufacturer, regardless of what the adds say and the exceptions. Now, here in NY, some are turning to another, less consistent than the former mentioned, and no longer available new. Bach, the former, Benge, the latter. Certainly, I, as so many others, dropped 10's of thousands of dollars wrapped in one mystique or another. In an effort to remain a gentleman, I have attempted to be sensible here. And if you read my first post, you will understand far more, regarding horns and the point attempted to be made. If you, or anyone else is too impatient or is simply too wrapped up in an argument, that's too bad. Again, in case you missed it, most Martin trumpets were sub standard. Pre war, for a period, were better. That's why players moved away. If anyone finds one that works for them, really, great. Survey the greatest players in every genre over the past 30 years. And as far as names...take it all, holistically, as a word of advise based on experience. It could save you or someone else, some money, some time, and some heartache. Cause there is a lot of heartache involved in chasing a horn or mouthpiece mystique.. |
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Zman
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 590
Location: New Plymouth, New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I would suggest to someone who is looking to purchase a Martin Committee to try to find one with serial numbers between 140,000 and 210,000 |
I'd go a few thousand back from that to around 137,000 ish otherwise you miss out on the Handcraft Committees and those IMO are the best of all.
From my own experience I'd stop around 185,000 ish[/quote]
_________________
Martins:
HC Committee #2
HC Imperial #3 LB & #4 XL Bore
Deluxe Committee Bb, C & Eb
Taylor Chicago II Lite
Yamaha 8335LA
www.thebrasscellar.com
www.facebook.com/thebrasscellar
www.youtube.com/channel/UCZk1sIuyVsQzrbsl7HfIfKw/
Last edited by Zman on Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Bill Ortiz
Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2007
Posts: 904
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| Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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This is starting to sound like the Mac vs. PC internet battles..
_________________
'56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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