View previous topic :: View next topic |
Author |
Message |
sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:38 am Post subject: Hitting super C's just not on the gig. |
|
|
Here is the problem and I hope that there is a solution for me. The band I perform with quite often has a very demanding book with very little lip recuperation time like rests or time between tunes. Gigs are 3 to 4 hours long. Last week end we played a 4 hour gig and took a 25 minute break. Most of the trumpet parts are between f on the top line and e above high c with occasional scream high notes. Add to all this that the band plays very loud and I have to blow hard to hear myself over them. I think because I am blowing harder I am unconsciously using more pressure which is to prevent the seal from leaking air. I get to where my range is limited to F above high C and anything above that is a gamble. What to do? I can hit the notes I do it all the time when I practice so it has to be the situation and I can not create that situation when I practice.
I welcome your comments _________________ 47 Martin Committee #3
Buescher lightweight 400 228
Buescher lightweight 400 217
Taylor/Harrelson/MAW
Warburton model 235
Stomvi Mambo #5
Conn constellation 38a cor.
Courtois 301 Orchestra C
Yamaha Custom 9830 pic
Yamaha 731 /Harrelson mod |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Al Innella Heavyweight Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2008 Posts: 755 Location: Levittown NY
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Trust your projection.Try holding back.The lead notes have a tendency carry over the band with out over blowing.A lot of times what sounds loud in the section doesn't project as much,but spreads and stays in the section.
So think less volume and more projection.You might actually sound louder out front,and with a lot less work.I have never had anyone tell me I wasn't loud enough,even when I felt I wasn't the loudest player in the section.
A sound with proper projection will carry further than a loud spread tone. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
I get that and thanks for the comment. I hope I can learn to play without hearing myself. In my mind the trumpet is the lead instrument and if I hear Tenor sax louder than me I compensate so that I am leading. It is a terrible curse for me. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
If you isolate exactly what the issue is, the answer will probably be obvious. You may know, but from what you wrote it's not clear.
Are you "blowing harder" because you are not loud enough in the band's overall balance?
Are you "blowing harder" because you can't hear yourself?
Is "blowing harder" something you do to increase your volume?
What is the instrumentation of the band? Does any other instrumentalist have the same issue as you?
I may have some suggestions for you when I see your answers. _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
crzytptman wrote: | If you isolate exactly what the issue is, the answer will probably be obvious. You may know, but from what you wrote it's not clear. |
I think I am pressing and over blowing on the gig because I can't hear. Is it possible to play these notes loudly without pressing? How do I prevent air leakage if I don't press? What exercises are required to strengthen my lips so they will hold seal with that amount of air going through them?
Quote: | Are you "blowing harder" because you are not loud enough in the band's overall balance? |
from what I am hearing I am not loud enough
Quote: | Are you "blowing harder" because you can't hear yourself? |
absolutely
Quote: | Is "blowing harder" something you do to increase your volume? |
The sound man can't give me more without getting feedback so yes
Quote: | What is the instrumentation of the band? Does any other instrumentalist have the same issue as you? |
Tower of Power instrumentation only just one trumpet. So Drummer, electric bass, electric guitar (both using big rigs) Keyboard player, vocalist, Bari sax , Tenor/alto, trombone and trumpet. amplified through PA system. Singer , Drummer and Guitar are unmercifully loud. Complaints have gone unheeded.
The gig pays quite well so I endure it but I want to sound good on the gig. hence this thread.
When I get subs for the gig they complain about the work load and toll on their chops.
Quote: | I may have some suggestions for you when I see your answers. |
Much appreciated
Last edited by sounds7 on Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:01 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
zackh411 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 17 May 2011 Posts: 1886 Location: Saint Louis MO
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
Are you on a mic? Regardless, a double high C carries even if it isn't quite as loud. Back off a bit. Heck, back off a bit in general. _________________ ~Zack
Lead Piece: Custom PickettBrass
Jazz Piece: Custom Curry TC
Legit Piece: Yamaha Shew Jazz (18 Drill) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
zackh411 wrote: | Are you on a mic? Regardless, a double high C carries even if it isn't quite as loud. Back off a bit. Heck, back off a bit in general. |
I agree. The trick is going to be hearing myself when I do this. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
dmb Heavyweight Member
Joined: 24 Dec 2002 Posts: 1305 Location: Anderson, IN
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
sounds7 wrote: | zackh411 wrote: | Are you on a mic? Regardless, a double high C carries even if it isn't quite as loud. Back off a bit. Heck, back off a bit in general. |
I agree. The trick is going to be hearing myself when I do this. |
One ear plug. _________________ Dan Burton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWuX9zPJWyY
-----------------------------------------------
Olds |
|
Back to top |
|
|
etc-etc Heavyweight Member
Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6187
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Make your practice room as loud as what you have on stage (better yet, same music) and direct your horn into something sound absorbent so that you get very little feedback (a box with soundproofing material open on one side). Plus, use TWO earplugs. Play by embouchure feel, not by the sound coming back. Record how do you sound. See whether the result is acceptable. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
TrpPro Heavyweight Member
Joined: 12 Jan 2006 Posts: 1471 Location: Riverview, FL
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
How you set up on stage can make a big difference as to how well you hear yourself.
Have no amps/speakers behind the horns and get as far from the drummer as possible. If you must be near the drums bring a plexiglass partition to put between you and the drums. If you're playing into a mic, attach a sound reflector. If you have monitors, have only horns in your monitor mix.
Last resort... 2 ear plugs. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
area51recording Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
What's your monitor situation like? If you can't get enough monitor, why not try one of those plexiglass "sound back" things on your mic? You ARE mic'd yes? I would hope so in such a loud band |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
Good idea's on the plexiglass. Yes all of us are amplified. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mm55 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
As a former live sound engineer, I cringe at the mention of the "soundback" and similar devices. They do indeed make it easier for a trumpet player to hear himself, but they make it harder for the soundman to make the band sound good.
They can make the trumpet sound very weird in the sound system, and they restrict how loud the trumpet's microphone can get in the mix. They reduce gain-before-feedback (how much you can crank the microphone's volume before it squeals), and they can really mess up a nice microphone's frequency response. I understand there's a tradeoff, but in this case it seems to be that the trumpet player can hear himself better, but he sounds lousy to the audience. That's a hard tradeoff for me to accept.
Since I don't make my living mixing sound any more, and I don't play trumpet for a living either, I have a simpler solution. I just won't play in (or mix) a band that's too loud. I can understand that a working pro may not see those options in the same light as I do. I really enjoy playing with drummers and guitarists who don't feel the need to be too loud. _________________ '75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg
|
|
Back to top |
|
|
razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Very rarely do I buy any gear without the chance to try it out first. One thing I did buy w/o the chance to try it first was my EV ND967, which they tout as having the most gain before feedback. I can't confirm that claim because I haven't used everything ever made, but it was $130 very well spent for my purposes. This was a while back but even for $160 I don't think you could touch anything else that will deliver like this. Plus, it sounds good |
|
Back to top |
|
|
horntooter Veteran Member
Joined: 12 Nov 2012 Posts: 120
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm in the same situation regularly. I second the vote to not use the microphone plexiglass feedback stuff. I've never used it because I heard a band that sounded pretty good on the album, but the trumpet player used that and it sounded just absolutely awful live. Even a single directional cardiod mic is going to get a ton of feedback from that (obviously the player is getting a ton of feedback). So the sound engineer has to make major compromises. Ok the guy's lip feels great the next day, but it doesn't seem worth it. You just have to trust that you can play by feel and not by ear. It sucks. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
Pops Heavyweight Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2002 Posts: 2039 Location: Dallas (Grand Prairie), Texas
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Reducing volume (yours) by 1/2 a level helps endurance and usually projection too. (Sometimes even 1 full level is needed.) On a LOUD gig you can't hear well enough to tell how much your sound spreads so you can't risk max volume.
Getting away from amps as much as possible helps and a shield helps. Unamplified (unmiked) a sound reflector is OK.
Next you KNOW what your setpoint feels like. You know what it takes to move a 3rd, a 5th... We often have to TRUST how a note (our embouchure) feels because we can't hear it.
Put in earplugs and record a practice. See how well you stay on pitch and resonant. Expand your feel outward from your homebase Lip SetPoint. Your setpoint is always ok. Then a 3rd either way is OK. Then work to a 5th....
It doesn't take long to gain the confidence to play by feel.
Lastly you say you can hit the notes in practice. Can you play 50 double high Cs a day?
The point is if you can only play 4-5 in practice it isn't usable. If you can play a bunch in practice it should be usable. _________________ Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com |
|
Back to top |
|
|
mbailey Veteran Member
Joined: 29 Jul 2002 Posts: 183 Location: Huntsville, AL
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Al Innella wrote: | Trust your projection.Try holding back.The lead notes have a tendency carry over the band with out over blowing.
...
So think less volume and more projection.You might actually sound louder out front,and with a lot less work.
|
+1
I got this advice from Roger Ingram during a lesson. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I agree with TrpPro except for the sound reflector, where I agree with mm55. And of course I agree with Pops.
sounds7 wrote: | crzytptman wrote: | If you isolate exactly what the issue is, the answer will probably be obvious. You may know, but from what you wrote it's not clear. |
I think I am pressing and over blowing on the gig because I can't hear. Is it possible to play these notes loudly without pressing? How do I prevent air leakage if I don't press? What exercises are required to strengthen my lips so they will hold seal with that amount of air going through them?
Well, you are not strong enough to play at the volume you want to. Nothing wrong with that. Practice on becoming the best you can be and it will come naturally. Accept where you are and don't go past that in performance or it will be to your detriment.
Quote: | Are you "blowing harder" because you are not loud enough in the band's overall balance? |
from what I am hearing I am not loud enough
You cannot hear your balance in the band from behind your horn.
Quote: | Are you "blowing harder" because you can't hear yourself? |
absolutely
Quote: | Is "blowing harder" something you do to increase your volume? |
The sound man can't give me more without getting feedback so yes
That's not what I meant. I meant is that your perception of how it's done?
Quote: | What is the instrumentation of the band? Does any other instrumentalist have the same issue as you? |
Tower of Power instrumentation only just one trumpet. So Drummer, electric bass, electric guitar (both using big rigs) Keyboard player, vocalist, Bari sax , Tenor/alto, trombone and trumpet. amplified through PA system. Singer , Drummer and Guitar are unmercifully loud. Complaints have gone unheeded.
The gig pays quite well so I endure it but I want to sound good on the gig. hence this thread.
When I get subs for the gig they complain about the work load and toll on their chops.
Quote: | I may have some suggestions for you when I see your answers. |
Much appreciated |
So I see two issues that are related, but can also exist independently and have specific solutions.
1) Your development as a trumpeter. Continue to practice diligently, and seek out advice from teachers and respected players on how to approach playing the instrument. Continue to develop over time into the strong player you want to be.
2) On your performance stage, you have proximity issues. As others have stated, you need to position yourself away from amps. Your amplified instruments should be going through the board and using their amps for stage reference only. They shouldn't be trying to drive the venue with their amps.
I like a good strong drummer, but I don't like over playing. If the drummer plays too loud, he won't hear anybody else unless he has a screaming monitor pointed at him.
Vocalists are usually all about "I need more of me in my monitor, and everyone else's too." Time for some "in ear" monitors.
Invest in your own good quality mic appropriate for what you do, and get your own in line personal monitor. I see some players with "hot spot" type that go on a mic stand. I carry a JBL Eon 10" and a splitter.
If all else fails, ear plugs and full speed ahead!
All the best _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)
Last edited by crzytptman on Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
Back to top |
|
|
crzytptman Heavyweight Member
Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 10124 Location: Escondido California
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oh, I forgot to mention - get a Wild Thing! _________________ Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld) |
|
Back to top |
|
|
sounds7 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 635 Location: New Orleans
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The musicians earplug has been suggested in lew of the plexiglass shield. I will also look into the IEM suggestion. Thanks for the input guys. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|