Hitting super C's just not on the gig.

sounds7

Here is the problem and I hope that there is a solution for me. The band I perform with quite often has a very demanding book with very little lip recuperation time like rests or time between tunes. Gigs are 3 to 4 hours long. Last week end we played a 4 hour gig and took a 25 minute break. Most of the trumpet parts are between f on the top line and e above high c with occasional scream high notes. Add to all this that the band plays very loud and I have to blow hard to hear myself over them. I think because I am blowing harder I am unconsciously using more pressure which is to prevent the seal from leaking air. I get to where my range is limited to F above high C and anything above that is a gamble. What to do? I can hit the notes I do it all the time when I practice so it has to be the situation and I can not create that situation when I practice.

I welcome your comments
_________________
47 Martin Committee #3
Buescher lightweight 400 228
Buescher lightweight 400 217
Taylor/Harrelson/MAW
Warburton model 235
Stomvi Mambo #5
Conn constellation 38a cor.
Courtois 301 Orchestra C
Yamaha Custom 9830 pic
Yamaha 731 /Harrelson mod

Al Innella · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:54 am Post subject:

Trust your projection.Try holding back.The lead notes have a tendency carry over the band with out over blowing.A lot of times what sounds loud in the section doesn't project as much,but spreads and stays in the section.

So think less volume and more projection.You might actually sound louder out front,and with a lot less work.I have never had anyone tell me I wasn't loud enough,even when I felt I wasn't the loudest player in the section.

A sound with proper projection will carry further than a loud spread tone.

sounds7 · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:03 am Post subject:

I get that and thanks for the comment. I hope I can learn to play without hearing myself. In my mind the trumpet is the lead instrument and if I hear Tenor sax louder than me I compensate so that I am leading. It is a terrible curse for me.

crzytptman · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:06 am Post subject:

If you isolate exactly what the issue is, the answer will probably be obvious. You may know, but from what you wrote it's not clear.

Are you "blowing harder" because you are not loud enough in the band's overall balance?

Are you "blowing harder" because you can't hear yourself?

Is "blowing harder" something you do to increase your volume?

What is the instrumentation of the band? Does any other instrumentalist have the same issue as you?

I may have some suggestions for you when I see your answers.
_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)

sounds7 · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:50 am Post subject:

zackh411 · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:57 am Post subject:

Are you on a mic? Regardless, a double high C carries even if it isn't quite as loud. Back off a bit. Heck, back off a bit in general.
_________________
~Zack

Lead Piece: Custom PickettBrass
Jazz Piece: Custom Curry TC
Legit Piece: Yamaha Shew Jazz (18 Drill)

sounds7 · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 8:06 am Post subject:

dmb · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:00 am Post subject:

etc-etc · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Jan 2008 Posts: 6181

Make your practice room as loud as what you have on stage (better yet, same music) and direct your horn into something sound absorbent so that you get very little feedback (a box with soundproofing material open on one side). Plus, use TWO earplugs. Play by embouchure feel, not by the sound coming back. Record how do you sound. See whether the result is acceptable.

TrpPro · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 9:42 am Post subject:

How you set up on stage can make a big difference as to how well you hear yourself.
Have no amps/speakers behind the horns and get as far from the drummer as possible. If you must be near the drums bring a plexiglass partition to put between you and the drums. If you're playing into a mic, attach a sound reflector. If you have monitors, have only horns in your monitor mix.

Last resort... 2 ear plugs.

area51recording · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480

What's your monitor situation like? If you can't get enough monitor, why not try one of those plexiglass "sound back" things on your mic? You ARE mic'd yes? I would hope so in such a loud band

sounds7 · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:55 am Post subject:

Good idea's on the plexiglass. Yes all of us are amplified.

mm55 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 01 Jul 2013 Posts: 1412

As a former live sound engineer, I cringe at the mention of the "soundback" and similar devices. They do indeed make it easier for a trumpet player to hear himself, but they make it harder for the soundman to make the band sound good.

They can make the trumpet sound very weird in the sound system, and they restrict how loud the trumpet's microphone can get in the mix. They reduce gain-before-feedback (how much you can crank the microphone's volume before it squeals), and they can really mess up a nice microphone's frequency response. I understand there's a tradeoff, but in this case it seems to be that the trumpet player can hear himself better, but he sounds lousy to the audience. That's a hard tradeoff for me to accept.

Since I don't make my living mixing sound any more, and I don't play trumpet for a living either, I have a simpler solution. I just won't play in (or mix) a band that's too loud. I can understand that a working pro may not see those options in the same light as I do. I really enjoy playing with drummers and guitarists who don't feel the need to be too loud.
_________________
'75 Bach Strad 180ML/37
'79 King Silver Flair
'07 Flip Oakes Wild Thing
'42 Selmer US
'90 Yamaha YTR6450S(C)
'12 Eastman ETR-540S (D/Eb)
'10 Carol CPT-300LR pkt
'89 Yamaha YCR2330S crnt
'13 CarolBrass CFL-6200-GSS-BG flg

razeontherock · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 12:24 pm Post subject:

Very rarely do I buy any gear without the chance to try it out first. One thing I did buy w/o the chance to try it first was my EV ND967, which they tout as having the most gain before feedback. I can't confirm that claim because I haven't used everything ever made, but it was $130 very well spent for my purposes. This was a while back but even for $160 I don't think you could touch anything else that will deliver like this. Plus, it sounds good

horntooter · Veteran Member Joined: 12 Nov 2012 Posts: 120

I'm in the same situation regularly. I second the vote to not use the microphone plexiglass feedback stuff. I've never used it because I heard a band that sounded pretty good on the album, but the trumpet player used that and it sounded just absolutely awful live. Even a single directional cardiod mic is going to get a ton of feedback from that (obviously the player is getting a ton of feedback). So the sound engineer has to make major compromises. Ok the guy's lip feels great the next day, but it doesn't seem worth it. You just have to trust that you can play by feel and not by ear. It sucks.

Pops · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:06 pm Post subject:

Reducing volume (yours) by 1/2 a level helps endurance and usually projection too. (Sometimes even 1 full level is needed.) On a LOUD gig you can't hear well enough to tell how much your sound spreads so you can't risk max volume.

Getting away from amps as much as possible helps and a shield helps. Unamplified (unmiked) a sound reflector is OK.

Next you KNOW what your setpoint feels like. You know what it takes to move a 3rd, a 5th... We often have to TRUST how a note (our embouchure) feels because we can't hear it.

Put in earplugs and record a practice. See how well you stay on pitch and resonant. Expand your feel outward from your homebase Lip SetPoint. Your setpoint is always ok. Then a 3rd either way is OK. Then work to a 5th....

It doesn't take long to gain the confidence to play by feel.

Lastly you say you can hit the notes in practice. Can you play 50 double high Cs a day?
The point is if you can only play 4-5 in practice it isn't usable. If you can play a bunch in practice it should be usable.
_________________
Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com

mbailey · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:45 pm Post subject:

crzytptman · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:56 pm Post subject:

I agree with TrpPro except for the sound reflector, where I agree with mm55. And of course I agree with Pops.

crzytptman · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:58 pm Post subject:

Oh, I forgot to mention - get a Wild Thing!

_________________
Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
"so full of it I don't know where to start"
Horn: "just mismatched Kanstul spare parts"
- TH member and advertiser (name withheld)

sounds7 · Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:29 pm Post subject:

The musicians earplug has been suggested in lew of the plexiglass shield. I will also look into the IEM suggestion. Thanks for the input guys.