Joined: 10 Jul 2012 Posts: 601 Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:01 pm Post subject: Best Orchestral Bb Sound and Trumpet
Hi Everyone,
I've been churning this one in my head for a while and can't figure it out. What is the best sound that a Bb should have in an orchestral type setting? I've heard the C should be bright and the Bb should be darker. Should the Bb be bright too? And what Bach parts would best achieve that sound? I know I'm limiting the options here, but what is the best Bach orchestral sound/trumpet? Bach 43/43? 25/25? 25/43...etc? What would the best leadpipe and bell be? I'm working on building a horn and I want to figure out what parts I could narrow my search to.
Thanks,
Matthew _________________ Matthew Porter
"There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, learning from failure"- Colin Powell
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:50 pm Post subject:
Both the 43 bell and 43 lp are each brighter than other options. I played this through school and while i was louder than the entire marching band put together (graduating class of 2200) it didn't get me seats in high level competitive orchestras. Wrong sound for that.
I'd love to get that old horn back and go with a switchable bell set-up of 43 or 65 bell, or maybe even 43* instead of 43. Charlie Melk's 525 lp is a great option for any Bach, Pilczuk is doing some interesting things, and I hear Blackburn is "pretty good" too
My "Bach killer" has a bell made by B & S, presumably for their Challenger. Very standard Bach sound, just plays better.
The Bach 65 bell with a Vindibona bore looks to me (on paper) like it should be a really sweet horn. Personally I don't like Bach's 25 lp, but the 7 suits me fine. Not sure about the comparison between 7 and 37 bells for orchestral purposes, but the NY7 plays well for me, meaning its pretty easy for me to get a sound on it that's focused and full.
Joined: 10 Jul 2012 Posts: 601 Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:00 pm Post subject:
razeontherock wrote:
Both the 43 bell and 43 lp are each brighter than other options. I played this through school and while i was louder than the entire marching band put together (graduating class of 2200) it didn't get me seats in high level competitive orchestras. Wrong sound for that.
I'd love to get that old horn back and go with a switchable bell set-up of 43 or 65 bell, or maybe even 43* instead of 43. Charlie Melk's 525 lp is a great option for any Bach, Pilczuk is doing some interesting things, and I hear Blackburn is "pretty good" too
My "Bach killer" has a bell made by B & S, presumably for their Challenger. Very standard Bach sound, just plays better.
The Bach 65 bell with a Vindibona bore looks to me (on paper) like it should be a really sweet horn. Personally I don't like Bach's 25 lp, but the 7 suits me fine. Not sure about the comparison between 7 and 37 bells for orchestral purposes, but the NY7 plays well for me, meaning its pretty easy for me to get a sound on it that's focused and full.
Not sure if you've stated this before, but have you tried the 43/7 combination?
Matthew _________________ Matthew Porter
"There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, learning from failure"- Colin Powell
Joined: 03 Nov 2011 Posts: 2327 Location: Beavercreek, OH
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:01 pm Post subject:
37/25 ML... Bb should have a warmer sound than your C-more lower overtones present.. _________________ Freelance Performer/Educator
Adjunct Professor
Bach Trumpet Endorsing Artist
Retired Air Force Bandsman
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:59 pm Post subject:
musicman0097 wrote:
Not sure if you've stated this before, but have you tried the 43/7 combination?
Matthew
No. Reading 43/7 I'm inclined to think you mean 43 lp w/ 7 bell. Just a hunch, but I don't think that would be a great combo, although of course some might love it. Now the 7 lp w/ 43 bell? I might really dig that ... my current daily player is a Bach 7 "copy," or at least Jason Harrelson's version of it
He most likely means the opposite. 43 bell with a 7 leadpipe, it can be a great combination. Chris Martin used one but I am unsure for how long and if he still uses it.
When I saw Chris Martin play Shostakovich Piano Conerto 1 with CSO last year he was using a Bach Bb (2nd mvt)…looked well worn. He might very well be using it.
Joined: 10 Jul 2012 Posts: 601 Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:21 pm Post subject:
AndyLott wrote:
razeontherock wrote:
musicman0097 wrote:
Not sure if you've stated this before, but have you tried the 43/7 combination?
Matthew
No. Reading 43/7 I'm inclined to think you mean 43 lp w/ 7 bell. Just a hunch, but I don't think that would be a great combo, although of course some might love it. Now the 7 lp w/ 43 bell? I might really dig that ... my current daily player is a Bach 7 "copy," or at least Jason Harrelson's version of it
He most likely means the opposite. 43 bell with a 7 leadpipe, it can be a great combination. Chris Martin used one but I am unsure for how long and if he still uses it.
Yes, I meant 43 bell/7 LP. I have a Bach 43 with a tuning rail on it. I would have a 43 tuning bell with a 7 leadpipe. I figured the 43 would be bright, but the 7 would darken it slightly offering a nice tone. What does everyone think?
Matthew _________________ Matthew Porter
"There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, learning from failure"- Colin Powell
Joined: 08 Oct 2012 Posts: 314 Location: Huntsville, AL
Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:17 am Post subject:
In orchestra when I use B flat I use a standard 43 with a big mouthpiece. I actually don't find it to be overly bright. One of the first things I noticed about the horn is the different colors you can get out of it depending on the mouthpiece. In general, large mp=full and rich, small mp= bright and brilliant. Specifically, when I put my 1 1/2C on it I get a rich sound perfect for orchestras, and with a 5C it will melt paint and shatter windows.
I believe that orchestral sound should be rich and somewhat dark, though not so dark that you can't be heard. But this isn't as important as just listening while you're in the group and deciding what sound you should use. Don't go in there thinking "I'm gonna play bright or dark." Listen and adjust. _________________ "May God have mercy on my enemies, because I won't." George S. Patton Jr.
"Those who have achieved all their aims probably set them too low." Herbert von Karajan
Joined: 19 Apr 2008 Posts: 175 Location: Grosse Ile, Michigan
Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:45 am Post subject:
I play a Yamaha 8310Z, it has worked fine for me. Both auditions and in the orchestra. Since most orchestral stuff is played on C, I find it very helpful having a versatile Bb for pops shows.
Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 8333 Location: Twin Cities, Minnesota
Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:30 am Post subject:
mchs3d wrote:
Peashooter. King Liberty
No.
Gordontrek wrote:
In orchestra when I use B flat I use a standard 43 with a big mouthpiece. I actually don't find it to be overly bright. One of the first things I noticed about the horn is the different colors you can get out of it depending on the mouthpiece.
Agreed. The 43 can work, depending on who you are and your sound - also, your mouthpiece of choice. For me, yeah, it works fine. Other people might sound like a salsa band trumpet with that horn. _________________ LA Benge 3X Bb Trumpet
Selmer Radial Bb Trumpet
Yamaha 6335S Bb Trumpet
Besson 709 Bb Trumpet
Bach 184L Bb Cornet
Yamaha 731 Bb Flugelhorn
Last edited by Crazy Finn on Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:44 am; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 10 Jul 2012 Posts: 601 Location: SF Bay Area, California
Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:32 am Post subject:
Crazy Finn wrote:
mchs3d wrote:
Peashooter. King Liberty
No.
The 43 can work, depending on who you are and your sound. For me, yeah, it works fine. Other people might sound like a salsa band trumpet with that horn.
Thanks for that. I'm usually a darker sounding player so I think it will be good.
Matthew _________________ Matthew Porter
"There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, learning from failure"- Colin Powell
I have used both my Bach models 37 and 72G in orchestras. In the orchestras that I've played in when playing Bb trumpet my section mates usually play a 37 or 72. I like to match when possible.
I don't own a 43, although I would like to get one someday. I'm sure you can blend fine with it depending on the player and mouthpiece. I have to say that I've come across more players with the model 37.
Joined: 13 Feb 2006 Posts: 4308 Location: Casper, WY - The Gotham of the Prarie
Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Best Orchestral Bb Sound and Trumpet
musicman0097 wrote:
I'm working on building a horn and I want to figure out what parts I could narrow my search to.
Matthew, in the long run, I don't know how much it matters as long as you use your head.
Let's say you wind up playing in a community orchestra. How your sound fits will be dependent upon factors that will particular to that orchestra. I'm thinking of everything from skill level to what's in the MD's imagination.
But it is so much fun to day dream and even order/build a horn to suit our dreams. However, 100% of the time, my ability, or lack thereof more properly, is what limits me. That is, I'd be playing in other groups or covering other parts if I were better. No horn on earth will compensate for my deficiencies.
Even so, it is great to talk about all this trumpet stuff like we amateurs and hobbyists do. If you do go through getting a horn, I'd advise against anything that would make re-selling it difficult -- such as an unpopular combination of parts.
Otherwise, have a blast dreaming and building. Don't forget the practicing _________________ 1972 Selmer Radial
Of course, that's just if you want an amazing broad, fat, focused, warm, brilliant, dark, resonant, vibrant, velvet, earth shattering, tear-jerking sound with unparalleled projection, perfect intonation, and response so fast the notes just jump out of the bell with the slightest effort.
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