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Pro and con Claude Gordon?


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jungledoc
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:07 am    Post subject: Pro and con Claude Gordon? Reply with quote

So, what are the arguments for and against the Claude Gordon method?
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ProAm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cons: stresses work, not magic, with slow and steady progress toward increased endurance, range and playing ability

Pros: stresses work, not magic, with slow and steady progress toward increased endurance, range and playing ability
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lmaraya
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with CG %99.9. The only think I never understood is the keep the "keep the chest up" indication while blowing. It makes me tense. I just think of blowing candles on a birthday cake.
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ProAm
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. For me, I find that playing chest-up does keep tension out of the air flow. I am just too lazy to do it all the time. You are a much better player than I so I certainly won't argue with what you say, though. Just offering my opinion, too.

People are different. The Gordon method is sort of a "one-size fits most."
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oxleyk
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The biggest con for me is a lot of time on pedal tones as a way to connect the upper register. I've progressed much faster using methods that don't involve pedals.

Last edited by oxleyk on Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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lmaraya
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2014 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ProAm wrote:
Interesting. For me, I find that playing chest-up does keep tension out of the air flow. I am just too lazy to do it all the time. You are a much better player than I so I certainly won't argue with what you say, though. Just offering my opinion, too.

People are different. The Gordon method is sort of a "one-size fits most."


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Jerry Freedman
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 3:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claude Gordon works fine for some people. Produces some amazing players. Reinhardt works fine for some people, produces amazing players. Gordon and Reinhardt are very different in approaches. Hard to generalize from one persons results to another.
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jungledoc
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2014 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In what ways are they different?
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the pros for the gordon method are that it's well founded and will bring you along as a player. i am working the routine. it's a lot of collective wisdom with its roots in the 19th century if not earlier.
the cons are that no one system encompasses what you will need. feel free to pick fruit from different trees. learn about what others are doing and if something attracts you and makes sense take a bite at it.
as a practical example pops mclaughlin will correct anyone's approach regardless of what they follow and how they learned. if each system were complete you wouldn't need chop docs. in a sense he is his own system that you can take advantage of.
you may know a little something in life but that's as far as it goes. the eastern approach of knowing that you know nothing and being humble applies and in that spirit take knowledge where you find it.
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jazztrumpetbill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems most of these methods strive to make trumpet playing a routine. That is, every time you pick up your horn to play you use the same set and same air support. This allows you to play musically with endurance and range.
I will say that all of these routines or methods don't spend enough time on the actual playing of music. Unless you have four hours per day to devote to playing the trumpet.
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MJo
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

chuck in ny wrote:
the eastern approach of knowing that you know nothing and being humble applies and in that spirit take knowledge where you find it.


That's Socrates, a Greek -- therefore, the western approach, though you would never know it these days.
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cheiden
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm no expert but I studied for many years with a Gordon student. And it seems to me that because Gordon's method doesn't talk a lot about mechanics (i.e., "forget the lips") it's makes it particularly important that you study under the watchful eye of a pro teacher familiar with the method.
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jazztrumpetbill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I agree with the teacher part. If you are playing incorrectly, you are not going to "feel" your way out of it.
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Craig Swartz
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jazztrumpetbill wrote:
It seems most of these methods strive to make trumpet playing a routine. That is, every time you pick up your horn to play you use the same set and same air support. This allows you to play musically with endurance and range.
I will say that all of these routines or methods don't spend enough time on the actual playing of music. Unless you have four hours per day to devote to playing the trumpet.
(emphasis mine) Routines are important to allow one to have the fundamentals and endurance to make music. In that sense, Gordon (or Reinhart, or Maggio, etc.) are about developing a set of skills essential to trumpet performance but they are hardly the end result in and of themselves. The actual music making will depend upon many factors, natural talent being one of them. Trumpet playing, or performance on any instrument, as an actor, singer, athlete, etc. all encompass a large amount of skills and abilities. The old "silk purse/sow's ear" is always applicable in real life.

BTW- if one really desires to be a pro player, 4 hours per day devoted to the instrument, at least for a fair amount of time, is hardly unreasonable. Good luck.
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cfkid
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Craig Swartz wrote:
jazztrumpetbill wrote:
It seems most of these methods strive to make trumpet playing a routine. That is, every time you pick up your horn to play you use the same set and same air support. This allows you to play musically with endurance and range.
I will say that all of these routines or methods don't spend enough time on the actual playing of music. Unless you have four hours per day to devote to playing the trumpet.
(emphasis mine) Routines are important to allow one to have the fundamentals and endurance to make music. In that sense, Gordon (or Reinhart, or Maggio, etc.) are about developing a set of skills essential to trumpet performance but they are hardly the end result in and of themselves. The actual music making will depend upon many factors, natural talent being one of them. Trumpet playing, or performance on any instrument, as an actor, singer, athlete, etc. all encompass a large amount of skills and abilities. The old "silk purse/sow's ear" is always applicable in real life.


I have to say that I agree with this. I relate what I'm learning with Gordon't method back to my martial arts days. In most martial arts, you don't really become a student of the art until you get your black belt. Then you have all the tools necessary to learn the art itself.

For me, I still need a bunch of work on the skills to make good music. I feel that Gordon's method is helping me build all those skills. Yes, it takes a long time but at least I can see the road I have to travel. That being said, I'm sure there are other methods that will get you there.

In my opinion, you should get in touch with one of Claude's direct students and get some guidance/lessons. I don't think I could have done it alone. Maybe it's just me.

Mark
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chuck in ny
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MJo wrote:
chuck in ny wrote:
the eastern approach of knowing that you know nothing and being humble applies and in that spirit take knowledge where you find it.


That's Socrates, a Greek -- therefore, the western approach, though you would never know it these days.


know-nothing and do-nothing is a zen practice. zen is fundamentally common sense so it's not surprising the same idea will pop up anywhere.
do-nothing is interesting. it doesn't mean that you do squat any more than you know squat.
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BPL
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2014 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Differences (features):
- Gordon focuses more on "feel" than "sound"
- Gordon emphasises the "knack" rather than muscular strength.
- Gordon seeks to train the physical elements in isolation until they become second nature.. as this happens, coordination becomes easier and the "knack" is revealed
- Gordon abhors analysis.. it's what you practice and how you do the exercises that matters. (some of the how is unfortunately missing from the instructions. That's where a specialist teacher comes in. For example.. adding pedals, glisses, long holds to the end of some exercises.. and articulation and dynamic variations of existing exercises)
- Gordon claims that it works for ALL.. I think he's right
There's nothing really unique about the exercises. You can actually find very similar sorts of exercises in all the great texts. What Gordon did was to put it all together into a workable pedagogy.. IMO this is his real legacy.
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PhxHorn
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BPL, what do you know about the Reinhardt method? In particular, what analysis is unnecessary?

If you've got embouchure problems, how does CG fix them?
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Mike Sailors
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you've got embouchure problems, how does CG fix them?



Just throw more air at it!

I kid!
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PhxHorn
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 21, 2014 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought it was more pedal tones!
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