Pro and con Claude Gordon?

[BrianCade]

[Bicestertrumpeter]

[John Mohan]

[Bicestertrumpeter]

[John Helmke]

Hey Steve-

I've been working through the Systematic Approach for about 15 months now. Early on I had a couple of lessons with John and it was enormously helpful. It's just so beneficial to work with someone who's actually been there and done that.

For me, I do the whole routine every day. If I'm fatigued its because I have moved to fast through the material and should probably go back a few lessons to ones that I can do comfortably before continuing on. I came at this with a fair amount of experience and am now on lesson 26 after 15 months. Don't rush through it. John will tell you that it's not a race. Build up slowing every day.

CG is not the only thing that I do daily but, in spite of the time required, it has become an important element of my daily routine.
_________________
John Helmke

Bach 37G
Bach 239/25H
Schilke P5-4

[Bicestertrumpeter]

Thanks John

I'm only on no.5 which I've done for about 10 days, so I'll take the advice and slow down until I'm comfortable. I still can't do the routines on band rehearsal days though because my lip doesn't recover sufficiently quickly (and there often isn't time either). What do other find? Would any players do a full 5 Part SA session and then play a 2 hour rehearsal or gig that same day?

Steve

[StupidBrassObsession]

[John Mohan]

In regard to whether or not one should do the full routine on heavy performance days, Claude always said "work comes first." He felt that the routine could and should be adjusted if needed, to the player's work/performance schedule. If the work schedule was fairly steady (for instance, his students that were playing in the Las Vegas Show Bands), he'd write their routines with their work obligations in mind. In cases where one would have big performance days that didn't follow a regular schedule (such as performing studio calls or playing in a local big band), he'd advise the student to only play a portion of the daily routine on those days. Usually, the Systematic Approach would be the first thing left off the routine.

Personally, I've gone in both directions depending on what worked best at the time. In Germany there was a point where we had a children's musical ("Emil und die Detektive") running concurrently with Disney's "Der Glöckner von Notre Dame" (Hunchback) at the Potsdammer Platz Theater. Hunchback dropped down from eight to seven shows a week, the Emil played 6 shows a week, on Monday nights, Tuesday nights, and matinee shows several days of the week and 10am morning shows on weekends. I auditioned for Emil and got the job - so at that point I was playing 13 shows a week, including triples on Saturday and Sunday. Ouch! At this point, my "Daily Routine" consisted of just 10 minutes or so of Irons Flexibilities a half hour or so before the first show of the day.

But on the other hand, while playing "The Color Purple" here in Chicago a few years ago, I toned my Daily Routine down and started having trouble with the show - some of the long dance numbers with big shout choruses were starting to get the best of me. I attenuated my personal practice even more, and the situation just got worse. So I went in the opposite direction and increased my daily routine, and in particular I stared doing the Pedal and Range exercises of Systematic Approach Lesson Two (Parts 1 and 2, followed by S.A. Lesson Three Part 3 to relax my lip) every day except for double show days. Within a week I was fine again, and within another few weeks I was putting a Double B into one spot in the song "Push Da Button".

Basically, the player needs to find what works best for him or her in the particular situation. If the playing/work obligations are heavy, the Daily Routine should probably be diminished. A little experimentation to see what works best, is in order.

Regarding Crash Courses, I'd still be willing to do one for a player that wanted one, but with the advent of Skype, there's really no need for the Crash Course concept anymore. A player is MUCH better off taking Skype Lessons every two weeks, or even just once a month. That way, I can keep customizing his or her Daily Routine to exactly the right stuff and exactly the right amount of that stuff based on where the player is with his or her playing, the amount of outside work/playing he or she is doing, and what areas in particular need more or less attention. I charge $75 per lesson as I have since I started teaching again in 2002. Lessons typical last a bit over an hour with me, and sometimes less than an hour. Basically, the lesson lasts until we've completed what we need to complete during a particular lesson (the record time for a lesson is a bit over two hours).

Best wishes,

John Mohan
_________________
Trumpet Player, Clinician & Teacher
1st Trpt for Cats, Phantom of the Opera, West Side Story, Evita, Hunchback of Notre Dame,
Grease, The Producers, Addams Family, In the Heights, etc.
Ex LA Studio Musician
16 Year Claude Gordon Student

[Bicestertrumpeter]

First of all I'd just like to thank John and Stupidbrassobsession for their very helpful postings on this topic. I wouldn't describe myself as advanced, and I don't play for a living. I've been playing a long time but only ever practiced for 1 to 2 hrs max so the SA is a larger amount than that, particularly once the Clarke type exercises start to multiply. I've tried practicing early, but there is a limit to how early one can practice in the presence of neighbors. I'm reluctant to use a practice mute, particularly on the pedal and range studies since air flow is so important. Maybe the Clarke exercises could be done with a practice mute in extremis.

I have a teacher who recommended the SA book but without a great deal of follow up explanation (we were working on other material at that time). I think I may have over repeated the Clarke studies, as indicated by HLC. I note that further on in the book CG builds up the repetitions so I suspect that the SA approach is to maybe only do one or two repeats when a study is first introduced and to begin at a speed below that set by HLC, but unfortunately the SA book is silent on these matters and CG is no longer with us to ask. That is why it is useful to hear from John, who has studied the method.

I think as for stamina I will omit the routine on performance days and reduce it on rehearsal days. Even done early in the day (and it's a long routine so it wouldn't finish that early) it still leaves some fatigue. Doc Severinsen has of course built up to several hours practice over many decades. He may not do 8 hours practice on a performance day?

I recently spoke with a player who took a lesson from one of the world's most famous players, legendary for being able to play fluently in all registers including the most extreme ones on fairly standard equipment, (you can probably guess who I'm referring to). The student asked to play a duet which went above the stave, perhaps to an A or thereabout s and this was declined as 'too high' given the performance that evening this from a player who can comfortably play above double C and has done so on numerous CDs (I have personally witnessed this player perform in London and I don't think he ever missed.

[deleted_user_02066fd]

Some years back I met a guy who had done the SA book. Basically locked himself in a room and practiced 4-6 hours a day. I don't know who he was studying with, this had to be around 75-76. He had good sound up to double c while warming up. I never heard him play that far up in the rehearsals we were in. In warm ups he looked pretty relaxed in all registers.

[Bicestertrumpeter]

[jbeights]

[JVL]

Hello Bicester,
i come late in the post, and hope you resolved the question .
In case no, i'll recommand you to separate Part II and the following routine for more than 2 hours, maybe four (you can do PI & II in the morning, and the other parts in the afternoon.
In PII, rest more between sequences than how long last the sequences (rather than "rest as long as you play").
On busy day, when i was a young pro practicing SA, i used to play PI for warming up (beginning of the day/before gig), and let's say 10mn before the gig i played arpeggios along the 7 positions(starting from low F#) to cover my range, holding top note. But with enough rest between sequences.
No more.

I was a developping player, so to cover the entire routine was impossible. Anyway by that time, especially when finished my classical studies in Conservatory, i stupidly neglected all the other aspects...just because all i wanted was to be Lin Biviano
I had been so happy to get this book, that made me dream since a child, seeing it at the back cover of Arban! he really helped me for range and volume, especially some weeks after we got in Conservatory our jazz tp teacher, a good strong old school (in the noble meaning, like you could say Conrad Gozzo ) lead, great person ! i had never heard such a big fat sound, from down to high !
But i was often in overuse syndrom. Now i know why, after 26 years of being a pro, and having studied physiology etc. Because if you play it as written, you can go into trouble, especially if you're developping your playing....
Months ago, i read a post by John Mohan who indeed said C. Gordon made his students practice SA in a different manner, or adapted it to them.
It has to be this way. It makes sense, it's wisdom.
I'll finish saying that even if i don't think it's good to stay always in his own comfort zone, it's better not to think anymore "no pain no gain".
And even if everything in everybody can be developped and improved, everyone has his limits. Not everybody can support such a schedule that John Mohan talked about. Even with a lot of work and dedication. There are leads, soloist, etc, like sprinters, marathonians, etc. And 2 sprinters would not respond the same to such intensity or volume training, even if their perfs are equal.

good luck, and good night to everyone

[duane v]

I study with Claude Gordon from 7th grade to the end of my freshman year in college, and as I look back about 50% of the curriculum was rudimentary, but that might have been due to my age.

There were two things he always stressed to me was keep yourself in good physical shape, as this would make me a more consistent player. And stay in the moment.

He was really supportive and was always eager to find the right trumpet that would fit my playing disposition.

[StupidBrassObsession]