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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2412 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:11 am Post subject: |
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I vote for #3.
If Chet's abilities were all from his natural intuition, this implies (for some) that he didn't have to work hard to be a great trumpet player. And if this is true, then maybe I can also be a great jazz soloist without having to work hard.
Who wants to 'shed hours every day working on patterns, scales, and other fundamentals? Chet didn't need to.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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area51recording Veteran Member
Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:15 am Post subject: |
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It sucks to hear, but for some people it seems to be the case....
Listen, this dosen't spring from any of 1,2,or 3 for me. I can't do it. I'm not insecure about my talent, because I KNOW I don't possess that kind of acumen personally. I'm speaking from personal experience from decades of playing and gigging that I have met and played with guys (not just trumpet players, and only maybe 3) that I KNOW simply were able to hear and play some magnificent stuff without a comprehensive knowledge of what they were doing. In at least one case the guy happened to have perfect pitch, so that may have been a factor. At any rate these were rare occurrences and I never felt threatened by it (maybe a bit jealous!). Chet may or may not have been one of these freaks of nature, who cares really, but I'm saying from personal experience that these kind of players, albeit rare, do exist...... |
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John Mohan Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Nov 2001 Posts: 9830 Location: Chicago, Illinois
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:33 am Post subject: |
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etc-etc wrote: | That is because as much as music theorists would like to believe to the contrary, music is intuitive first and logical second. Scales and chord names are not as important as being able to use them. |
+1,000,000 |
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veery715 Heavyweight Member
Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Posts: 4313 Location: Ithaca NY
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:11 am Post subject: |
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We don't need no stinkin' validation!
Uh...did I do that right? _________________ veery715
Hear me sing!: https://youtu.be/vtJ14MV64WY
Playing trumpet - the healthy way to blow your brains out. |
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Bill Ortiz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 904
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:45 am Post subject: |
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You learn all the rules, and then you learn to break the rules. _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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Steve A Heavyweight Member
Joined: 26 May 2006 Posts: 1808 Location: Toronto, Canada
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:15 am Post subject: |
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TrumpetMD wrote: | I vote for #3.
If Chet's abilities were all from his natural intuition, this implies (for some) that he didn't have to work hard to be a great trumpet player. And if this is true, then maybe I can also be a great jazz soloist without having to work hard.
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Maybe you're not counting yourself among the "some", but there's no reason why it necessarily logically follows that guidance through intuition takes any more or less work than theoretical instruction. It's just a different path.
For my part, I find the idea that Chet Baker's understanding of music was in any meaningful way limited to be ridiculous, regardless of the names or labels put on the notes. |
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TrumpetMD Heavyweight Member
Joined: 22 Oct 2008 Posts: 2412 Location: Maryland
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Steve A wrote: | Maybe you're not counting yourself among the "some", but there's no reason why it necessarily logically follows that guidance through intuition takes any more or less work than theoretical instruction. It's just a different path. |
I absolutely agree. My comments were in response to the question about why some of us are so fascinated by this topic.
Steve A wrote: | For my part, I find the idea that Chet Baker's understanding of music was in any meaningful way limited to be ridiculous, regardless of the names or labels put on the notes. |
I also agree.
Mike _________________ Bach Stradivarius 43* Trumpet (1974), Bach 6C Mouthpiece.
Bach Stradivarius 184 Cornet (1988), Yamaha 13E4 Mouthpiece
Olds L-12 Flugelhorn (1969), Yamaha 13F4 Mouthpiece.
Plus a few other Bach, Getzen, Olds, Carol, HN White, and Besson horns. |
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Bill Ortiz Heavyweight Member
Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 904
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 10:49 am Post subject: |
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I also agree with Steve. The whole point is to enjoy Chet Baker's art/playing. When I go to the museum and admire Picasso or Monet, I don't spend too much time thinking about what the chemical make-up of the paint was or what kind of brush he used. It's about appreciating and feeling the artistic statement and it's beauty. _________________ '56 Martin Committee Deluxe #2 trumpet
14B Schilke mouthpiece
Couesnon Paris flugelhorn
Bob Reeves Sleeves and PVA |
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MrOlds Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Apr 2003 Posts: 724 Location: California
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:08 am Post subject: |
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I recall reading some anecdote about Michelangelo. Someone asked him about how he managed to create sculptures out of pieces of marble. He said something like the figure was already in there he just chipped away until he found it. Or something like that.
I believe there are many artists that develop only the technique they need to express the art they already have inside, rather than developing a complete catalogue of techniques and then set about finding the art.
So what Chet didn't know or couldn't do isn't really important to me. He found a way to get his art out and it is wonderful to hear. |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:32 am Post subject: |
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Steve A wrote: |
Maybe you're not counting yourself among the "some", but there's no reason why it necessarily logically follows that guidance through intuition takes any more or less work than theoretical instruction. It's just a different path. |
It's a shorter path, that bypasses the need for verbal language, which seems to mainly get in the way more often than not.
Steve A wrote: |
For my part, I find the idea that Chet Baker's understanding of music was in any meaningful way limited to be ridiculous, regardless of the names or labels put on the notes. |
His understanding was demonstrated by his playing. So I rather like the way you put this here. |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 11:52 am Post subject: |
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veery715 wrote: | We don't need no stinkin' validation!
Uh...did I do that right? |
No, you did not. It's the stinkin' badges we don't need, but maybe we should consider Harry James, who was said to look at a sheet of music once and then play the piece. Seems to be sort of a cross-over with what Chet had happening?
We still need to be able to turn our ears on, no matter what other tools we may have. And it seems to me this is always the biggest challenge to music education, in any large ensemble setting. |
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terrystrand New Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2014 Posts: 3
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 5:11 am Post subject: Chet Baker |
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I am a trumpet player for decades.
I have also read pretty nearly every book, article, interview, etc. on my trumpet 'hero'.
Somebody asked him why he never practiced and he replied, 'Why? I gig every week, every day! That's my practice.' Of course, Chet was a savant, i.e. he had the very rare ability to play totally by ear. His pianist, Russ Freeman said Chet had no idea about harmonic theory, though he could read music a bit.
BTW, you trumpet guys/girls may want to give a shout out like I do to Chet's long time girlfriend, Dianne Vavra who is on FaceBook. She was a huge part of Chet's life for years and especially at the end. RIP, Chet:
https://www.facebook.com/diane.vavra.5?fref=ts
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Hugh Anderson Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 Posts: 398
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:14 pm Post subject: chet |
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When I was growing up, there were lots of people who played 'by ear.' Those who got good also learned chords, scales, etc. They may have used different terminology for it than reading musicians, but they knew. |
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razeontherock Heavyweight Member
Joined: 05 Jun 2004 Posts: 10609 Location: The land of GR and Getzen
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Chet Baker |
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terrystrand wrote: |
Somebody asked him why he never practiced and he replied, 'Why? I gig every week, every day! That's my practice.' |
Sounds like an apparent similarity with (IIRC) Warren Leunig, who's next door neighbor never suspected he was a trumpet player. As far as he knew, he just went to work, with a briefcase. (I'm thinking my next door neighbors might prefer that) |
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Hugh Anderson Veteran Member
Joined: 22 Sep 2011 Posts: 398
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:32 pm Post subject: chet |
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Yeah, and besides, practicing sets off the neighbor's car alarm. |
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MFaddicted Veteran Member
Joined: 08 May 2014 Posts: 150
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Posted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Bill Ortiz wrote: | I also agree with Steve. The whole point is to enjoy Chet Baker's art/playing. When I go to the museum and admire Picasso or Monet, I don't spend too much time thinking about what the chemical make-up of the paint was or what kind of brush he used. It's about appreciating and feeling the artistic statement and it's beauty. |
Well said! However, if I listen to Arturo, I become impressed with the glitter of his fast fingers and range....not his melodes.
When I listen to Chet, I become impressed with the pure music he is creating.
Should I also be appreciating Arturo not because he has the fastest fingers in the west, but because his fast licks are really his artistic statement???
Seems hard to know |
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terrystrand New Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2014 Posts: 3
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Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:00 am Post subject: |
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Chet Baker is fascinating because you and I can never become as 'good'.
Not with all the work, music degrees, or practicing in the world.
And to be able to still make beautiful melodies, jazz, and to even be able to play after shoving an estimated million dollars worth of heroin into his veins over the course of thirty years is even more amazing.
Over the decades I've listened to Chet's tunes, watched them on YouTube, read every book and article and interview about the great Chet Baker, emulated his playing...and he is still a mystery man.
He was a gently guy, but as a typical addict he tossed people and opportunities under the bus when they conflicted with his need to cop. |
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jazz_trpt Heavyweight Member
Joined: 25 Nov 2001 Posts: 5734 Location: Savoy, Illinois, USA
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Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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I would suggest a couple of things (scrolling back a few responses) -
Don't compare major artists, it's a waste of time, except to identify what you like about them. Celebrate their differences.
Also, I don't think it's productive to concentrate on the drug use of 50s jazz musicians. Let their body of work speak. I know that some artists went through periods where their addictions affected their music, but if you knew nothing about that, would their music still speak to you?
Or, put another way, if we dropped the needle, could you tell they were using? If not, why concentrate on it?
There are cautionary tales to be dug out if you want to find them, but many of us (most of us?) are interested in capturing some piece of the magic. _________________ Jeff Helgesen
Free jazz solo transcriptions! |
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Dan O'Donnell Heavyweight Member
Joined: 01 Jan 2005 Posts: 2287
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Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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I absolutely LOVE Chet's music.
It is my personal opinion that one of the ways he got the mellow, rich and warm sound was due to the lack of tension that is sometimes caused by us Trumpet players overly-thinking and worrying about the next chordal progression or the high note coming up in a chart.
He played the Trumpet with his heart, checked his ego at the door and played beautiful music.
After watching a couple Biographies about his life...his soul appeared to be both sad and lonely...I can hear it in his tone meaning he spoke with his horn which we should all strive for
Regarding practice...when I get to busy and lazy to go into the wood shed, I always refer to this...
"If practice is so important; how did Wayne Bergeron have a Double C in Jr. High school?...He certainly did not practice for many years to achieve that..." _________________ God Bless,
Dan O'Donnell
"Praise Him with the sound of the Trumpet:..."
Psalms 150:3 |
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terrystrand New Member
Joined: 22 Apr 2014 Posts: 3
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Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2014 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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I think being interested and studying Chet the Man, as well as Chet the Trumpeteris simply interesting. And worthwhile.
I don't believe that over thinking was ever Chet's problem...about life, love, chords, etc.
Dean Martin's wife and Ronald Reagan's daughter both famously said, 'I lived with him, but I don't think I ever really knew him.' Same was said about Chet.
Doc Severinsen practiced hours and hours a day...if you read his interviews or watch them on YouTube.
But Chetty played and played and played and almost never practiced, yet he could perform the most complex yet intuitive jazz improv without ever using cliches, and while strung out on heroin.
Amazing. Miss ya, Chet...gone, but not forgotten. |
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