CHET BAKER did not know scales or chords....CAN YOU BELIEVE?

lipshurt · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:23 am Post subject:

Chet was a competent piano player, to the point of being able to do whole gigs on piano if his chops were not working right on trumpet.

At the end of "candy" CD video, he sits down with red Mitchell at the piano, and red shows him are harmonization of a standard. Chet watches his hands REAL close, and then picks up his horn and plays a nice perfect chorus on the re-harm. He knew exactly what was happening, you can see it.
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delano · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:29 am Post subject:

Sorry mr. Mcgovernor, I respect you but your statement goes a little far. Besides that I am not sure that personally knowing people like Chet prevents you and others from being mildly fooled. The same with Miles Davis, I read a lot about him in his (auto)biography's but I believe him only for one half.
Chet may had some advantage out of his ragged image that suited him, likewise a formal and good education is not a good recommendation in speedball country. So for his image the idea of a Bix-like musical background as a natural and half-educated talent was at least not bad.
Miles created some fog curtains about his influences and used sometimes cheap excuses for his misbehavior and was a genius in ignoring people when they were a threat to his ego (like Gerry Mulligan). I don't want to be moralistic but never trust a junkie. Maybe that sounds hard but I'm afraid I am close to the truth.

mcgovnor · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 8:43 am Post subject:

[I perhaps a translator would help. Chet..Stan..and a lot of others are simply true to their gifting. I played with Stan numerous times and hung with Chet.
Trade said if he could play like Stan..he would. He couldn't. So he was true to his gift. Chet and Stan played by ear and heart..and genius. I saw tunes put in front of them it would take a month to figure out what the chord symbols meant..let alone play on them. But these guys turned it all to themselves and put it under their dominion. They brought it all to themselves on the spot. There is meat..and there is milk. These guys were the meat afa the natural approach to improvisation. That's why it sounds the way it does.The world...kind of knows that. Anyway enough childish banter. Beautiful.summer day..even with pneumonia. The kind of day Chet would get in his red 65 Mustang convertable ..Grab his blond pedal pusher wearing girlfriend...and take a drive..trying to get into trouble. [/i]

Ominous pancake · Regular Member Joined: 04 Jul 2014 Posts: 16

I had a trumpet lesson with Chet Baker a few years ago... he tried to demonstrate a C major scale 1 octave to me... he failed on his 23rd attempt and then started crying. I then tried to cheer him up by playing an F sharp melodic minor 6 octaves ending on the F sharp above triple C... he walked out and had a tantrum... poor guy

Avan · Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject:

MFaddicted · Veteran Member Joined: 08 May 2014 Posts: 150

mcgovnor · Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 6:51 pm Post subject: ..

Delano..if you watch the movie about Chet, The Final Days..or whatever it is, you will hear the pianist from Hollywood, who worked i Chet's hottest and first group..clearly and emphatically state, Chet, knew NOTHING about chords..scales..theory..and didn't even know what key he was playing in.. You guys who disagree for the sake of saving face, or just, "because" ought to learn how to accept and grow from the truth, honestly presented, not for the presenters ego..but to illuminate others, solely. Chet was a natural, and wanted to stay that way, because he knew it was what kept his approach uniquely his. And Stan, my ex father-in-law, was the same. Stan was, perhaps, the most amazing natural talent I've ever had the pleasure of playing with. Stan was one of a kind..if he lived in Mozart's day, there would have been two of them. And the student who says he took a lesson with Chet and treated him to a 5 octave scale...permit me to let you in on something I learned regarding Chet, the hard way. He thought guys who muscled their way around others by forcing the high note issue..were just plain stupid.

razeontherock · Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 7:28 pm Post subject:

jazz_trpt · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:08 am Post subject:

area51recording · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480

jazz_trpt · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:57 am Post subject:

area51recording · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480

area51recording · Veteran Member Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 480

On a serious note, it dosen't happen often, but I've met several people in all the years I've been doing this (35+) that didn't know a lick about theory, scales etc, but had such incredible ears that unless you knew their story you'd never guess that they were uneducated in that department. They were just incredible instinctive musicians....

EBjazz · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:35 pm Post subject:

I think there are two kinds of "know"; theoretical and instinctive.
Chet was instinctive. He certainly PLAYED scales (notably harmonic minor), so in some deep dark corner of his mind, he "knew" them. He knew them by instinct.

Eb
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jazz_trpt · Posted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 5:12 am Post subject:

Yes.

Scales, modes, changes are ways to describe something that's going on, or ways to guide you to make certain choices. They're not the ONLY way to describe or conceptualize what's going on.

Some of us learn the absolute least amount of theory we need to do to get the job done.

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Bill Ortiz · Heavyweight Member Joined: 02 Jan 2007 Posts: 904

If you listen to his note selection and how he followed changes, he certainly knew more than basic theory.
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Jon Arnold · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Jan 2002 Posts: 2025

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvl14_6sazs

Watch this clip. Russ Freeman comments about Chet's knowledge of chords.

delano · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:40 am Post subject:

All beautiful stories about nataral playing and so on but at least Stan Getz was a VERY good reader of music and was well educated in (basic?) theory.
If I remember wel he played as a kid in the bigband of Jack Teagarden who even had to take up the role as a guardian of Stan to keep him playing. He could flawlessy execute the written scores.

Getz later explained his gift: "It's like a language. You learn the alphabet, which are the scales. You learn the sentences, which are the chords, and then you talk extemporaneously with the horn (...)"
Same for Chet?

Billy B · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:09 am Post subject:

I guess it depends on your definition of "knowing" theory.
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Richard III · Posted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:31 am Post subject:

Apparently you all enjoy talking about this. We are up to page five. I'm trying to figure out why you find it so interesting. Here are options that are common with people:

1. Defending your own approach
2. Defending your teaching method or the method of your teacher
3. Worrying that your lack of talent and need for a more regimented process means you are less talented than others
4. Wanting to say that Chet was a rarity and therefore that supports that others can't do it his way

What if you approached music your way? What if your approach did not require validation from others? Oh wait, that's what the internet is for. Validation from others that you are doing the right thing, you are doing the accepted thing or your are getting the acclaim that you feel you deserve.
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