Another video

razeontherock · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:05 pm Post subject:

Melissa Venema's embouchure is almost as weird as Chris Botti's

Maybe her type is a sideways IIIA?

Beautiful tone though. Going by this recording here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=253aGgk7NSE

Where does she show some technique?

Paul T. · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:24 pm Post subject:

The shades were the number one thing that jumped out at me, as well!

Are you willing to talk a little about why you feel so certain both of these players are probably better off as IIIAs?

I can see that they're playing as IIIBs, but I don't know why you both (Chris and Doug) are confident there might be more than meets the eye here. Is it just an intuitive sense from experience, or are there specific tells we can all learn to spot?

What would Doc have said, do you think?

That's the interesting bit here for me.

Paul T. · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:42 pm Post subject:

Doug Elliott · Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 6:29 pm Post subject:

Let's just say I learned a lot from Doc, but I also learned a lot from his students... especially the ones he mis-typed.

I don't know what he would have called either one of them. He always did a lot of observing, and some testing. By observation, you could most likely say they're both playing as IIIB's, and in a lot of ways they both look like IIIB's.

But I saw Doc mis-type several players as IIIB's, that I later concluded should have been IIIA's. And if he wasn't sure he virtually always said "IIIB for now." Remember, a lot of students came for one lesson with no follow-up.

He was more likely to push someone in a direction he thought they could maintain, and many borderline types have trouble changing what they do naturally. (We talked about this).

A lot depends on the person, and their willingness to believe they could be doing something wrong. It works and got them where they are now, so how could it be wrong?

This gets right into his philosophy of " The best advice is: don't give any."

Only if someone asks and REALLY wants to know.

Doug Elliott · Posted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:49 pm Post subject:

I realize my last post was kind of cryptic., so I'll explain a little more.

Reinhardt invented the whole idea of defining embouchure types and their associated characteristics, but some players are hard to define as definitely one type or another - they may have characteristics of different types. The two Swedish players mentioned in this thread are good examples of that. Even someone familiar with the Reinhardt embouchure types could easily be confused by watching them play.

It's never a good idea to switch types, or play with a combination of types. Playing works best, most consistently and reliably when the form and mechanics follow the one type that the player's anatomy is best suited for. Most successful players find something close to their ideal form on their own, but many do not. Some people are such good musicians that they can make almost anything work whether it's really best for their anatomy or not.

Almost every player at any level has some little details in their playing that could be slightly modified to better follow their ideal form, and thereby make things more consistent. That's what I'm talking about here, and what everything in this Reinhardt forum is all about.

The hard part is CORRECTLY defining someone's embouchure when it's not obvious, or is ambiguous for various reasons.

Paul T. · Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:03 am Post subject:

Thanks, Doug.

I was wondering about some of that - a clarification helps.

What I'm still curious about, though, is what you and Chris are seeing in their playing which suggests that they might be better off playing as IIIAs. Are there specifics details you're picking up on here?

It seems to me that they are a) playing consistently as IIIBs, and b) don't have any evident playing problems (with the possible exception of going a bit flat on some of those intervals, as you pointed - is that a major clue? It doesn't seem to happen in the other recording of the same piece).

So what's jumping out to you here?

Chris mentioned that it was the general "look" of Ms. Thing's face/chops that suggested to him she might be a IIIA. Is that it, or is there more to it?

Mike Sailors · Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:10 am Post subject:

Doug Elliott · Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:58 pm Post subject:

Flat high range is definitely one clue, but there's a lot more that I can see but can't necessarily explain. Tine has the "look" and horn angle of a IIIA, but just her pivot is not quite there.. The other one has the "look" of a IIIA playing wrong... Not the "look" of a IIIB playing right. (The same applies to you, Mike). I realize that's not a very satisfactory explanation, but a lot of it is simply experience, seeing enough players to recognize these things.

amuk · Veteran Member Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 148

Yes, she has mixed pivots in her playing in the Haydn, but does a great job, of course. Her notes sound best, IMHO, when she pivots as a IIIa.
It's the big smiles when she removes the mouthpiece, between phrases that sort of freaks me out though!

Paul T. · Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2014 3:22 pm Post subject:

Fair enough! I can understand the role intuition and experience play in this whole process. Thanks!

swing95 · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:03 am Post subject:

Paul T. · Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:11 pm Post subject:

Ah, my mistake! Thanks.