• FAQ  • Search  • Memberlist  • Usergroups   • Register   • Profile  • Log in to check your private messages  • Log in 

BE - Stuck on Roll In



 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> The Balanced Embouchure
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ccb_22
Regular Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2011
Posts: 84
Location: Wilmington

PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:02 pm    Post subject: BE - Stuck on Roll In Reply with quote

I've been working with the BE system for a little over a month now, and I am completely stuck on the whole Roll In thing. I think I am doing a lip clamp correctly, and I think I am doing a LCS correctly (I get a sound, usually around a high concert Bb), but I cannot for the life of me get anything to come out when I put the horn on my face. Nothing, just the sound of air moving through the horn.

When I do a LCS and then put the horn on my face, my lips are so far rolled in that there is a considerable gap on the sides - there is no seal there and the LCS continues with no change because I'm not playing into the mouthpiece. I may as well put the mouthpiece on my forehead and do a LCS. I am not rolling my lips between my teeth. When I try to press the mouthpiece in a bit or roll the lips out a bit (in an effort to reduce that gap, play into the mouthpiece, and get a seal all the way around) the same thing inevitably happens - the top lip rolls out, and it looks and feels just like p. 78. If I press the mouthpiece this happens and no sound comes out, just air. If I unroll the lips a bit, I will get a note, but it feels and sounds basically the same as the way I have been playing for the last 20 years. Some background info:

-I've been playing 20 years. I have always had good tone, decent intonation, and no problems articulating, double or triple tonging. I have always had a lousy range, but I got by because I was strong in all other musical aspects. In high high school and college, my useable range was about an A. It stayed there for many years. Somehow over the last 5 years or so, I've been able to move it up to about a C, but no more. I was consciously working on my range, but only by simply playing in the high register more of the time, and lots of lip slurs. I used Gordon's Systematic Approach. My range has not moved above C in the last two years despite continuing with this method.

-I have a lot of skin that hangs down from my top lip right under the cupids bow, however I have never played with my mouthpiece in a low position as described on p. 79. I play with the mouthpiece vertically centered.

-I sound like the CD on the roll out exercises, so I assume I'm doing those correctly.

-I can do all the other exercises in the book as instructed (zips, snaps on slurs, tongue on lips), up to Advanced Lip slur #10. I could do them all from day one, they were easy.

I can't explain it but I really feel like like the BE system can help me with my range problems, but I just can't get started on the whole rolling in thing. Any advice is appreciated. Thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3398
Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let me make sure that I'm understanding you correctly.

The lip tissue near the center of your lips is thick, so when you roll in, the seal is complete and the air emerges from the sides (corners) rather than the center. Is that correct?

If so, then two questions.

When doing LCS, where does the air emerge?

When doing RI, have you tried puffing your cheeks to seal the corners?

Your answers may lead to other questions, so please hang in there.

Jeff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Shaft
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 19 Sep 2006
Posts: 974

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try rolling in less. Perhaps the hint of a roll. For your physiology that may help. If no sound is coming out it may be that everything is too compressed. Even try opening the space between the teeth a touch to allow some sound to come out.

Give it a shot and see what happens.
_________________
🎺
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ccb_22
Regular Member


Joined: 01 Jul 2011
Posts: 84
Location: Wilmington

PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff, the air is not coming out the corners, it's coming out the center. But that's all that's coming out is just air.

If i do like Shaft suggested and think more like a "hint" of a roll in, I do get a sound, usually around a high concert Bb. But you can definitely see the red of my lips when I do this and when I take the mouthpiece away, it definitely looks like pg 79. For these reasons, I thought maybe this didn't count as playing rolled in. Maybe it does count and I'm just being too literal about no red of the lips showing. Doing just a "hint" does feel more rolled in to me than my normal playing, so maybe I should go with it and keep working from there.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
trumpetteacher1
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 11 Nov 2001
Posts: 3398
Location: Garland, Texas

PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you talk about having a "gap" or not having a "seal," my first thought is that you are leaking air on the sides. So, if you could clarify here it might help, because your description, and my interpretation of your description do not jibe.

Further, you said that "If I unroll the lips a bit, I will get a note, but it feels and sounds basically the same as the way I have been playing for the last 20 years."

So, I didn't suggest loosening the RI, because you already said it didn't work.

To avoid further confusion - there are so many variables - maybe the best thing here is to simply email me directly, and send a video so I can see what you are talking about. I will be happy to do this, for which there is no charge.

What do you think?

Jeff
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Valerie
Heavyweight Member


Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Posts: 910
Location: Tacoma, WA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I was new to BE & still struggling with RI, someone in this forum wrote, "...as long as you are rolled in more than your regular playing embouchure, it "counts". So that's how I did my RI exercises for about 1 1/2 or 2 years. I was very happy with my progress. But I felt I might be missing out on something by not initiating RI with a LCS, so I went back to the beginning & started over. I was much more successful in my second try at RI initiated with a LCS and mastered it within a few weeks. I experienced big improvements in my regular embouchure during this period.

Was I "missing out" on something before I learned to do RI the way Jeff instructs? Yes. But ... I DID progress nicely during that time period. The less severe RI I did served to ease me into the real full blown RI.

Sometimes, it just takes time for these things to work out.
Valerie
_________________
Valerie Wells
www.BEforHorn.blogspot.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Spirithorn
Regular Member


Joined: 24 Nov 2004
Posts: 29
Location: Cary, NC

PostPosted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a comeback player that is new to BE -- been at it for about 2 months. The "rolled in more than regular embouchure" approach definitely works for me on the RI side at this stage. I am much better (in my estimation) at the RO's. In fact, if I were never to get anything out of BE but the difference the RO's have made, then it would be well worth the time and investment.

There's something in the BE approach for everyone, it seems to me.

Alan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    trumpetherald.com Forum Index -> The Balanced Embouchure All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group