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Benge "Gordon Model" relative to CG Personal?



 
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TKSop
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:21 am    Post subject: Benge "Gordon Model" relative to CG Personal? Reply with quote

Hi,
I suspect the regulars on this forum are more likely to know the fine details between these two than the mouthpiece forum - please forgive me if this is not the case.

I have a Benge Gordon Model Cornet mouthpiece which I really like, the condition is Okay rather than excellent though and I'm not sure finding a trumpet partner is particularly feasible?

My questions are:
1) How similar are the rims on the CG Personal's to the Benge model?
2) How similar (or not) are the cup depth, profile and ID?

Thanks
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EricV
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi TKsop

I play a CG Benge trumpet with a Benge Gordon Model m/p which I love as I also play cornet in a brass band and the rim is like a cornet m/p (I think I read somewhere that Claude based it on an old Del Staigers piece). The specs that Bruce Haag supplied when I bought it are it looks to be about a 5 as there were no CG5 models and the throat is a #20, he also said the throat and backbore are noticeably larger than the new Kanstul CG 3

I didn't know there was a Benge Gordon Model cornet m/p ever produced, I recently bought a CG Personal cornet m/p and the rim is almost identical to my Benge Gordon Model trumpet piece, so I hope this helps. I would be interested to hear what some of the CG teachers know about the Benge model cornet piece, first I have ever heard of one!
Regards
Eric
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Benge Gordon Model is the one that truly is the real "C.G. Personal" in terms of what Claude actually played on when he made a full-time living on the horn. He developed the "C.G. Personal" long after retiring from full-time playing. As the CG3, CG7 and CG10 mouthpieces are all based on their respective Bach counterparts (3C, 7C and 10-1/2C) but with more V-shaped cups, cornet-style skeleton rims that were more rounded and bigger throats and backbores, so it was with the Gordon Model, which is based on a modified Bach 5C. Claude tried various sized mouthpieces during his playing days, at one point even playing on a Bach 1-1/4C. He settled on the 5C size which was modified by either Calicchio or his protege Burt Herrick with the above described modifications. It was Claude's modified Bach 5C that became commercially produced as the Gordon Model.

Of further note, there was the Benge Gordon Model and the Benge Gordon Model S. The S did not stand for "shallow" - it stood for Standard, as the S model came with a standard Morse tapered stem, where as the non-S model came with the smaller French Taper and would fit French Bessons (what Claude played) and also some if not most of the earlier Benge trumpets.

Hope this is helpful!

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.........and all these years i thought that the "S" stood for Sizzle!


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Bruce Haag
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2015 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't recall seeing a Gordon Model cornet mouthpiece but it doesn't surprise me that some were made. I'm glad you found one, but finding the trumpet version could be a challenge. Eric V got my last one. It was new old stock from a bunch of mouthpieces I got from Claude when he was cleaning out his studio in his later years. Maybe one will turn up on eBay??

Claude had me take the Gordon Model trumpet mp for a test ride sometime around 1976-1977 if I am remembering correctly. That's when they first came out. It was during my Vegas years. Before that time he had me playing on an opened up Schilke 11A for a number of years. It's not as shallow as some of the other Schilke "A" cups, but I had opened the throat to a #20 and reamed the backbore out in my garage with some tool I can't even recall. In earlier years back in the Bay Area, Carl Leach and I were experimenting a little with opening back bores with sandpaper on some sort of reamer. We weren't too picky back then! It seemed to work okay. Hah!


I must have been a bit of guinea pig for Claude. I was playing a 7C when I started lessons with him in '71, so we went through a number of Reeves models. Several trips to Bob's. He didn't seem happy with those so he sent me to Irving Bush. Literally. I remember that Mr. Bush had a really beautiful house and it smelled and felt like a pine forest inside. I've always wondered how he did that. Special air purifiers or something. It was amazing. (Remember, this was the L.A. basin in the early 70's before catalytic converters. But I digress.) Then Claude had me on a Schilke 12B4, then the 11A, then the Gordon Model, (which I found a little tough to adjust to coming off the 11A!) So right away he put me on the CG3 which I played for many years and everything was cool. Then in the early 80's he came out with the CG Personal. Played that about 13 years then went back to the CG3 after he died.

In retrospect, I wish that I had played just one trumpet mouthpiece all those years. Something middle-of-the road, about a 3C size with a #22 throat. That's where I seem happiest and where I am getting the most consistent results with my students too.

It's always interesting to "talk shop" but what REALLY matters (and we all know this but sometimes forget) it's not so much the equipment we play, but it's our willingness to practice correctly for as long as it takes until things develop.

Bruce
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EBjazz
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great history Bruce!
I want to add that the Bach 5MV was also designed by Claude and may fit your needs. It was the mpc that came new with the CG Selmers. I got one back then and played it for years when I was studying with Claude. Still have it too but can't play on it anymore.

Eb
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Bsully
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow is this perfect timing!

I just finished talking with Bruce about picking up a used CG mouthpiece from another member of the Big Band and then I read Bruce's quote:

Quote:
In retrospect, I wish that I had played just one trumpet mouthpiece all those years. Something middle-of-the road, about a 3C size with a #22 throat. That's where I seem happiest and where I am getting the most consistent results with my students too.


The only thing that bugs me about my late model 'Benge 3C' is that you can't seem to get them any longer. From what I read, this must have been some kind of import with the Benge name added. I know that Bruce was happy when he put the #22 reamer through it saying "nice short throat - good for them!"

Now that I'm thinking about a gold plate, it would be handy to be getting attached to something more 'available.'

Now off to practice my lesson!
Brian
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Matt Graves
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a note of clarification, the complete, original listing of CG mouthpiece sizes for trumpet and cornet in the Benge Catalogue was 1, 3, Gordon Model, 7 and 10.

The CG Flugel sizes offered were 5 and 7.



I have a CG1 S, a CG3 S, a Gordon Model, a CG7 S and CG7.

I also have a Gordon Model for Cornet.

I also have the original Kanstul CG Personal Trumpet, Cornet and Flugel

I also have the Marcinkeiwicz CG Personal 22 and CG3 22.

After all, I favor the CG3 size just like Bruce.
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Last edited by Matt Graves on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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homebilly
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there was also a CG 10 flugel mouthpiece as I have one somewhere.
I played the CG5 flugel piece for years but never liked the rim diameter as it felt
different to the trumpet CG3 or my custom piece that later became the CG personal

I now play a CG personal flugel that feels better on the lips but
I don't really like the sound on flugel...........


CG personal is my main trumpet piece and an old Benge CG3 when I play lead
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John Mohan
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And after a brief foray into a couple of Purviance mouthpieces (a 5*K4 and a 4*K4 both loaned to me by a couple of generous TH members), I am happily back on my Reeves 43C which in terms of cup size and shape is very similar to the CG3.

The Purviance pieces, both of which have a rim and cup diameter very similar to the Reeves 42 (which is based on the K4 rim) were just too small for me. I felt like I was trying to wear shoes that were a size too small but on my lips. I'll be sending those mouthpieces back to their respective owners this week.

If a bell curve was created showing trumpet players' mouthpiece size choice I am sure it would have the 3C/CG3/43C sized mouthpieces right in the middle of the curve.

Best wishes,

John Mohan
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Chaser
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt Graves wrote:
Just a note of clarification, the complete, original listing of CG mouthpiece sizes for trumpet and cornet in the Benge Catalogue was 1, 3, Gordon Model, 7 and 10.

The CG Flugel sizes offered were 5 and 7.



I have a CG1 S, a CG3 S, a Gordon Model, a CG7 S and CG7.

I also have a Gordon Model for Cornet.

I also have the original Kanstul CG Personal Trumpet, Cornet and Flugel

I also have the Marcinkeiwicz CG Personal 22 and CG3 22.

After all, I favor the CG3 size just like Bruce.


Matt,

It looks like all you are missing is the 10 S.





PM me your address so we get get the collection complete.
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