Mt. Vernon Bach short leadpipe questions.

Usedtobegood · Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2015 4:38 am Post subject:

I have a Bb Mt Vernon 191xx made 10/15/57 currently at Charlie Melk's getting restored. Charlie said it has the short leadpipe and lower tube and he is lengthening both. It plays and sounds so much better with the slide in vs being out so far as needed to play in tune. I had a 1950 NY that had the same issue. I used spacers in that horn but looking back I should have had it lengthened instead.

Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887

I have a '55 Mt. Vernon 43 ML Bb with a long receiver, and shorter tuning crook. I don't know if it has a long or short leadpipe, but it plays fine as is.

trumpetgeekIII · Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:42 am Post subject:

Hello guys! I just scored a MtV from Dillons with no bell designation. It's Ser# is 191XX just as "USEDTOBEGOOD" but I thought for sure this set of ser#'s belong to horns built in '59".... It also has the short pipe, speaks very well BUT, have to be pulled way out which makes me wish I hadn't bought it. I've been planning on running down to see Rich Ita to try some PILCZIK pipes on her... Charlie is GREAT but these PILCZIKS have a rich tone.
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rockford · Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:51 pm Post subject:

Well, I just had my short leadpipe trumpet fixed up by Charlie Melk. We talked about some less expensive options like spacers and just fixing the receiver but these seemed like putting a bandaid on the problem, so I opted for the complete fix which included a complete leadpipe assembly, longer lower tube and optional semi round tuning slide. Initial results are extremely positive. Much more focus to the sound and feel and less squirrelly pitch center. Less work to control and play. So far so good. Very reasonable price for the amount of work, parts and excellent quality of work. Well worth doing, especially if you have an instrument you basically like to start with.
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NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.

Usedtobegood · Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:22 am Post subject:

rockford · Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:45 am Post subject:

Usedtobegood · Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 3:49 am Post subject:

Just got my Mt Vernon 43 back from Charlie Melk yesterday...Oh My! It looks and plays beautifully! Extending the leadpipe and bottom tube helped tremendously. The horn just sings now! Highly recommend Charlie to anyone having work done. He is a master and his attention to detail is second to none!

Before:

After

Admittedly the horn was in pretty good shape when I bought it, but needed a new leadpipe (Charlie's MTV525) and tuning slide bow because of red rot, had some minor dents and dings and was a little cockeyed.

Charlie also extended the tubing, added a 1st slide saddle, converted the 3rd slide stop to Schilke/Yamaha type, took all the dents and pings out, refitted and resoldered the bell and all the slides and joints and buffed and relacquered it. We left the valves alone, except for springs and pads.

dstdenis · Posted: Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:44 am Post subject:

Nice!
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OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440

I'm resurrecting this thread just to add some additional detail.

I have been examining several Bachs from the period in question over the last year and have narrowed down the introduction of the taller wrap and shorter leadpipe to around serial number 154XX-155XX around 1956. The end point for that is the introduction of the Model 180 at Mt. Vernon in November/December 1962. Coincident with the taller wrap is a flattening of the tuning slide crook. The early NY crooks were a Besson-profile "D" radius. After the type E valves in the early to mid 30s became standard, the wrap got taller to accommodate them and the radius partially flattened out as a result. It seems each time Bach widened the gap, he just connected the dots as it were and by 1963, the crook wound up straight in front to span the gap. (Actually, I think he made a mental progression away from that Besson influence and back to his Holton roots - but that's just my theory)

Reading this as I was thinking of adding those details, and seeing that people are altering these short leadpipe horns troubles me. My feeling is that if you want a 180, you should just buy one.

There are those of us who enjoy the Bach tonal spectrum, but hate having our intonation locked by tight centering horns - which Bachs, especially 1963-2007 Bachs, are. The longer pull (for reasons that I have yet to discover) frees the horn of that rigid centering that makes one work to bend the problem notes in. When you go between band (flats) and orchestra (sharps) music, you have to adjust pitch center for intonation. The short pipe flexibility makes that effortless if, as Byron Autrey taught me years ago you have the air column and spectrum behind the embouchure in tune first, while standard Bach "tune the pitch for you" centering makes it much harder and thins the problematic notes.

There were maybe 4000 short leadpipe Mt. Vernon horns made. I would be surprised if 800 remain and these "conversions" thin the herd further leaving none for those of us who prefer not to have the horn pick "in tune" for us. This is just like a Committee: if you want one that slots, buy a Handcraft, if you want one that's loose, buy a post-war. But don't try to make one into the other.
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yourbrass · Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 6:27 am Post subject:

"The longer pull (for reasons that I have yet to discover) frees the horn of that rigid centering that makes one work to bend the problem notes in. "

A "longer pull" on the slide creates a larger and longer gap inside, between the leadpipe and the inner tuning slide. Most Calicchios I've seen tune this way. It's something that I want to experiment with, in terms of shortening this gap by making longer inner slides for my Calicchio to see what happens to the blow.
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trumpetera · Posted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:19 am Post subject:

My ML 43 serial 1700x had the shorter pipe.

It DID make the horn less "set" on where the notes are, but the inherent intonation of the instrument was hopeless. When pushed in, it was perfect- but too sharp...
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jazzvuu · Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:21 pm Post subject:

Having recent acquired a short leadpipe MTV and having it sent to Melk to get a Blackburn 19 pipe installed, I have to say that the feeling and color of the horn stay but help the intonation and slotting by much. I don't feel that tuning from an ensemble of band versus orchestra is a so wide that you need that much lip bending to switch ensembles. In tune is in tune either strings or winds or flats vs. sharps. What updating the leadpipe did was make the horn usable in performance and not being a closet relic. I will still default go to my Yamaha Artist model but there are times where the timbre of the MTV will work wonderfully.

rockford · Posted: Wed May 22, 2019 9:13 pm Post subject:

OldSchoolEuph · Heavyweight Member Joined: 07 Apr 2012 Posts: 2440

rockford · Posted: Thu May 23, 2019 8:02 pm Post subject:

I can’t tell you the number of times I thought I had some aspect of Bach production figured out and Roy would show me an instrument or chart that would explain my misconception. The main thing to remember is that Vincent Bach was a small businessman who couldn’t afford to waste parts. He might make some design change but would still use old parts if they were satisfactory. Some of the changes were made on a few instruments but were not significantly better to warrant a permanent change. Bach could not afford to toss his experiments in the trash. He’d use them on a cheaper instrument or still call it a Strad if it met that standard.
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Bill Siegfried
NY/Mt. Vernon Bach trumpets. Yamaha flugelhorn and piccolo A/Bb, Monette and Hammond mouthpieces. Fender and Peavey Cirrus Bass Guitars. Ampeg and Genz-Benz amps. Embraer 170/175/190.