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Pablopiccasso
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 Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:56 am Post subject: Bottom lip compression |
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| So many play with too much tension in their embochure (& other areas). So assuming we need to add compression to the airstream somewhere as the note gets higher, where best to apply this. Assuming good breath support, and tongue arch/placement, how does one do this? Is it through puckering, pressing the embouchure together (like gripping a pencil between the lips), or pushing the bottom lip up? |
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abontrumpet
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Joined: 08 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Just play like you want to sound. The rest will take care of itself. |
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Jerry Freedman
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:39 am Post subject: Re: Bottom lip compression |
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| Pablopiccasso wrote: | | So many play with too much tension in their embochure (& other areas). So assuming we need to add compression to the airstream somewhere as the note gets higher, where best to apply this. Assuming good breath support, and tongue arch/placement, how does one do this? Is it through puckering, pressing the embouchure together (like gripping a pencil between the lips), or pushing the bottom lip up? |
Of the various systems discussed on Trumpetherald all of the above plus rolling in the lips(Balanced Embouchure). They are each recommended by at least one system and all/any can work well. Depending on your personal set up, one or a combination of them will work best. Check out the forums here, find experiment, and investigate. |
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Mike Sailors
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So many play with too much tension in their embochure (sic) (& other areas) |
How do you know this to be true?
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Pops
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Sailors wrote: | | Quote: | | So many play with too much tension in their embouchure (sic) (& other areas) |
How do you know this to be true? |
He didn't say that everyone played with a crippling amount of excess tension. (Although I have seen thousands do this. And I know it because the removal of excess tension was all some of those players needed to start playing better.)
He said too much. That even includes 1% too much and that degree might include 99.99% of us. I certainly admit that it still includes me.
Last year Jim Manley took my advice and he reduced his tension just a little and he says his sound got bigger. Jim leaves testimonials on my facebook page often, so this is easy to check.
Almost all of us use too much of many things and that is the problem. We use a little too much tension, mouthpiece pressure, arch, lip compression... and we start to choke out the notes, or at least lose resonance on them.
Once we go past 100% of what the note really needs then we start degrading the sound. Sadly the sound degrades much faster due to excess than it does due to not enough.
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Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
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Pops
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:13 am Post subject: Re: Bottom lip compression |
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| Pablopiccasso wrote: | | So many play with too much tension in their embouchure (& other areas). So assuming we need to add compression to the airstream somewhere as the note gets higher, where best to apply this. Assuming good breath support, and tongue arch/placement, how does one do this? Is it through puckering, pressing the embouchure together (like gripping a pencil between the lips), or pushing the bottom lip up? |
You add things as you go higher and you already listed some of them.
However; none of this gets rid of the excess tension. That stays in the sound. It also lowers endurance and overall range. If you use excess tension on every note from Low C up then by High C what is left to use?
1. You get too tired to tighten up more and
2. You don't have any more muscles to tighten up.
The cure is too easy to not fix the problem.
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Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com |
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Mike Sailors
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| Pops wrote: | | Mike Sailors wrote: | | Quote: | | So many play with too much tension in their embouchure (sic) (& other areas) |
How do you know this to be true? |
He didn't say that everyone played with a crippling amount of excess tension. (Although I have seen thousands do this. And I know it because the removal of excess tension was all some of those players needed to start playing better.)
He said too much. That even includes 1% too much and that degree might include 99.99% of us. I certainly admit that it still includes me.
Last year Jim Manley took my advice and he reduced his tension just a little and he says his sound got bigger. Jim leaves testimonials on my facebook page often, so this is easy to check.
Almost all of us use too much of many things and that is the problem. We use a little too much tension, mouthpiece pressure, arch, lip compression... and we start to choke out the notes, or at least lose resonance on them.
Once we go past 100% of what the note really needs then we start degrading the sound. Sadly the sound degrades much faster due to excess than it does due to not enough. |
I get very skeptical when blanket statements get thrown around. In my experience (which, admittedly, is not vast as yours) the opposite advice is what was the key.
Besides, the sound of tension can represent a host of things, none of which have anything to do with excess tension in your face and or lips.
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike Sailors wrote: |
Besides, the sound of tension can represent a host of things, none of which have anything to do with excess tension in your face and or lips. |
How do you know this to be true?
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Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
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Mike Sailors
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | Mike Sailors wrote: |
Besides, the sound of tension can represent a host of things, none of which have anything to do with excess tension in your face and or lips. |
How do you know this to be true? |
First hand, personal experience.
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:32 pm Post subject: |
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So you doubt that Pablopiccasso has any.
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Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
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Mike Sailors
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| crzytptman wrote: | | So you doubt that Pablopiccasso has any. |
The difference is the width of the brush used, Nathaniel.
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crzytptman
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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I am not ruled by Saturn, Micha-el.
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Crazy Nate - Fine Yet Mellow Fellow
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chuck in ny
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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pops makes note of using the frown muscles just below the bottom lip to ascend, if this is what is being asked. it's a better deal to use the muscles right around the lips than to use the cheek muscles insofar as using less muscular effort.
i don't go around frowning so it doesn't feel natural or as usual to engage these muscles but they are there for you. |
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PhxHorn
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| Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Heck, I'm not even sure what it means to have tension in your embouchure. If it means stretching your lips, and I'd agree that it can be detrimental to your playing. Some players tend to stretch their lips outward (away from center) when breathing, and so if they play a long passage, their embouchure is distorted by the time they finish. Dave Sheetz explained to me that keeping the center of your lips just touching when you breath can help eliminate that potential problem. |
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Pablopiccasso
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Joined: 25 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| Alexander technique seems to be about using the right amount of effort for the task. Efficiency. Others probably know more about Alexander than me and it makes sense that this applies to trumpeting |
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ProAm
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 8:54 am Post subject: |
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What does "bottom lip compression" mean? For that matter, what does "lip compression" mean? Using muscles to press the lips together?
Arm pressure will certainly compress your lips -- back against your teeth. And, perhaps, against each other as well. |
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Pops
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| ProAm wrote: | What does "bottom lip compression" mean? For that matter, what does "lip compression" mean? Using muscles to press the lips together?
Arm pressure will certainly compress your lips -- back against your teeth. And, perhaps, against each other as well. |
Usually lip compression is bottom lip compression because usually we make the bottom lip push up into the top lip. (It is possible to do it the other way around.)
Yes the usual meaning of lip compression is to use some facial muscle to make the lips press together.
Arm pressure/mouthpiece pressure tends to cause issues with playing, sound and endurance so we don't usually include it in discussions.
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Clint 'Pops' McLaughlin
You can always Google me.
50 years Teaching. Teaching and writing trumpet books is ALL I do.
7,000 pages of free music. Trumpet Books, Skype Lessons: www.BbTrumpet.com |
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Pablopiccasso
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Joined: 25 Jan 2014
Posts: 204
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Bottom lip compression |
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| Pops wrote: | | Pablopiccasso wrote: | | So many play with too much tension in their embouchure (& other areas). So assuming we need to add compression to the airstream somewhere as the note gets higher, where best to apply this. Assuming good breath support, and tongue arch/placement, how does one do this? Is it through puckering, pressing the embouchure together (like gripping a pencil between the lips), or pushing the bottom lip up? |
You add things as you go higher and you already listed some of them.
However; none of this gets rid of the excess tension. That stays in the sound. It also lowers endurance and overall range. If you use excess tension on every note from Low C up then by High C what is left to use?
1. You get too tired to tighten up more and
2. You don't have any more muscles to tighten up.
The cure is too easy to not fix the problem. |
So what's the cure? That's what we need to know |
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Shaft
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| Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 11:11 am Post subject: |
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I will not answer for Pops. I will say however that the answer to your question can be derived from checking out his research and his website mentions many things for reducing tension. Bbtrumpet.com
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kfreet
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| Posted: Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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| So would everyone agree that too much pressure will inhibit the ability to play high notes? My teacher always told me to use just slightly more pressure as the notes became higher, and I'm talking a very small, possibly even negligible amount. |
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