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Getzen Trumpets 907DLX : Dealers in the UK : Used as New?


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Carly
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2020 10:32 pm    Post subject: Getzen Trumpets 907DLX : Dealers in the UK : Used as New? Reply with quote

We wanted to purchase a Getzen 907DLX after much consideration only to find that a UK dealer allows trumpets to be used. We were advised to look elsewhere when reasonable enquiries were made as to their policy on 14 day trials and what happens to the instrument if returned by previous customers. Would we not be buying a used instrument? It appears we struck a nerve.

It is appreciated that some instruments may require being inspected and set up ie saxophone, flutes etc but to then allow instruments to be trailed for 14 days by other customers and returned, renders them "used" and should be marked as such.

It would be helpful for the UK to have more than one distributor of Getzen trumpets so that alternative purchase options can be considered.


Last edited by Carly on Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:38 pm; edited 5 times in total
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.musik-bertram.com/musikinstrumente/Getzen/907-S/artikel-1169.html
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Dayton
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Would we not be buying a used instrument?


Perhaps one of the folks who actually works in a music store will chime in, but it doesn't seem unusual to me that a horn would have been played by someone else before you buy it. Only the biggest stores keep multiple "copies" of a horn in stock, and even then it isn't unusual for someone to want to try all the "copies" available as there are subtle variations in hand-made trumpets (like Getzens, Bachs, etc.).

If your concern is the cosmetic condition of the trumpet, you could ask for a discount if it is not "mint" or even ask for them to order you a new one. If your concern is health-related due to COVID-19, you could ask about a chem cleaning or other ways to ensure that the trumpet is safe to play.

Good luck! The Getzen DLX series horns are terrific!
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Speed
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it is sold as a "used" instrument, the buyer typically has little or no warranty, certainly no factory warranty. On the other hand, if the trumpet has never been sold by the dealer to a customer, but only played by prospective buyer, one would think that it qualified as a "new" instrument when sold to a buyer, at least for factory warranty purposes.

Take care,
Marc Speed
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Carly
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speed wrote:
If it is sold as a "used" instrument, the buyer typically has little or no warranty, certainly no factory warranty. On the other hand, if the trumpet has never been sold by the dealer to a customer, but only played by prospective buyer, one would think that it qualified as a "new" instrument when sold to a buyer, at least for factory warranty purposes.

Take care,
Marc Speed
Good point, thanks!
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jondrowjf@gmail.com
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:22 am    Post subject: Demo Reply with quote

If someone has used the trumpet and returned it, wouldn't the trumpet be considered a demo
trumpet? Then should be a lower price for the trumpet.
Is there a Getzen dealer in Ireland or Europe? What is the tax on trumpets from other European countries?
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JeffM729
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:48 am    Post subject: Re: Demo Reply with quote

jondrowjf@gmail.com wrote:
If someone has used the trumpet and returned it, wouldn't the trumpet be considered a demo
trumpet? Then should be a lower price for the trumpet.
Is there a Getzen dealer in Ireland or Europe? What is the tax on trumpets from other European countries?


I've seen these demo or trial horns listed as "open box" items for sale at a lower price.

If you want a brand new never played trumpet, have the dealer order you one. They are going to make money and should be very accomodating.
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Carly
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Demo Reply with quote

JeffM729 wrote:
jondrowjf@gmail.com wrote:
If someone has used the trumpet and returned it, wouldn't the trumpet be considered a demo
trumpet? Then should be a lower price for the trumpet.
Is there a Getzen dealer in Ireland or Europe? What is the tax on trumpets from other European countries?


I've seen these demo or trial horns listed as "open box" items for sale at a lower price.

If you want a brand new never played trumpet, have the dealer order you one. They are going to make money and should be very accommodating.


It would be thought, that option was not suggested, they did not think it suitable to take the enquiry any further based on the questions being asked.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:06 pm    Post subject: Trumpet Reply with quote

Yes. I agree with Jeff. Merchant wants the most money they can get. Other than lower price, what is the advantage of open box over new trumpet? Full disclosure, I have never owed an open box trumpet or new trumpet.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Trumpet Reply with quote

jondrowjf@gmail.com wrote:
Yes. I agree with Jeff. Merchant wants the most money they can get. Other than lower price, what is the advantage of open box over new trumpet? Full disclosure, I have never owed an open box trumpet or new trumpet.

I think there are a couple of categories here, not just two.

New in box:
1 - Brand new from the factory.

Open box categories:
Mostly unplayed (tech might play to determine and make enhancements)
2 - Brand new from the factory, but prepped and perhaps enhanced.

Played:
3 - Either of 1 and 2, but played in the store.
4 - Either of 1 and 2, but shipped out for a trial period.
5 - Either of 1 and 2, but played by a pro for some time, maybe once,
maybe more.

In the first case the factory warranty applies.

In the second, the factory warranty probably applies, but depending on what was done when enhancing it might not. There might be issues if warranty work is necessary.

In the third, the factory warranty should still apply, but any cosmetic or other damage done during trials should be fixed prior to purchase or a discount applied. In this case the shop should know exactly how the horn was used.

In the fourth case, the factory might have a case for denying warranty work. Neither the shop nor the new owner knows for sure how the horn was treated while out of the shop on trial. Nor what might have happened during transport. For instance a small bump of the second valve crook in shipping could cause the valve to hang, but not generate visible damage.

The fifth case is much like the third. Some pros might treat the horn with great care, some might not.

In my opinion, any horn sent out for trial should be examined by a competent technician and restored to factory condition. I would not have a problem purchasing a previously trialed horn from a top level tech, like James Becker, but not all techs are equal.

All that said, there is no guarantee that the a new horn doesn't have issues either. Some makers have a better quality reputation than others.
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:09 pm    Post subject: Demo Reply with quote

LittleRusty. Thank you for the detailed information. Before I buy next time, will review this information.
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HaveTrumpetWillTravel
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd say there are different cultural expectations too. In the US there tend to be long periods allowed for returns, whereas in other places return is disallowed and someone wishing for a trial period is seen as being very difficult. Personally, I tend not to return things often, but I value having that as an option if I'm genuinely dissatisfied. I also know there are instrument specific practices; for instance, violinists are often encouraged to demo several instruments for a period of weeks before deciding on one.

For OP, I would guess the store is small enough they could likely tell if/whether the instrument has been demoed.
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Brassnose
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomann and FMB offer what they call B stock (B Ware). Those are lightly discounted instruments that came back after a trial period. I owned one at some point (bought from Thomann) and there was no difference to a new instrument.

Thomann will specify this on their Website and FMB has a dedicated sub-site for these instruments. They also list display models.
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Carly
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Thomann and FMB offer what they call B stock (B Ware). Those are lightly discounted instruments that came back after a trial period. I owned one at some point (bought from Thomann) and there was no difference to a new instrument.

Thomann will specify this on their Website and FMB has a dedicated sub-site for these instruments. They also list display models.


In the UK it is fraudulent to list items as new if they have been used, stores are prosecuted for doing so.
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LittleRusty
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Carly wrote:
Brassnose wrote:
Thomann and FMB offer what they call B stock (B Ware). Those are lightly discounted instruments that came back after a trial period. I owned one at some point (bought from Thomann) and there was no difference to a new instrument.

Thomann will specify this on their Website and FMB has a dedicated sub-site for these instruments. They also list display models.


In the UK it is fraudulent to list items as new if they have been used, stores are prosecuted for doing so.

I don’t like using someone else’s horn, so the U.K. model would work for me.

I wonder what would be required to consider a horn used in the U.K. If it is simply the horn has been played that would be problematic. If removing or shipping it off premise means it is used that means a lot of internet buyers cannot try out new horns.
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Carly
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Thomann and FMB offer what they call B stock (B Ware). Those are lightly discounted instruments that came back after a trial period. I owned one at some point (bought from Thomann) and there was no difference to a new instrument.

Thomann will specify this on their Website and FMB has a dedicated sub-site for these instruments. They also list display models.


At least Thomann have the courtesy of listing 'B' stock but it is more likely that they are aware of the legal implications in not doing so.
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Crazy Finn
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dayton wrote:
Quote:
Would we not be buying a used instrument?


Perhaps one of the folks who actually works in a music store will chime in, but it doesn't seem unusual to me that a horn would have been played by someone else before you buy it. Only the biggest stores keep multiple "copies" of a horn in stock, and even then it isn't unusual for someone to want to try all the "copies" available as there are subtle variations in hand-made trumpets (like Getzens, Bachs, etc.).


Dayton is correct. Instruments are often played by customers who come in to the store, or sometimes they are taken out to demos and displays at schools, conventions, expos, and played by people at these events. Doing so does not make the horn "used."

At least, in my experience, these instruments are gone over by staff and often techs (as in repair techs), tested, wiped down, and cleaned before being returned to the wall or stock. Sometimes a mishap will befall one of these instruments which will necessitate an adjustment of it's price or condition, but routine occasional handling by customers is not enough to make an instrument "used."

Carly wrote:
In the UK it is fraudulent to list items as new if they have been used, stores are prosecuted for doing so.


I am not familiar with anything UK, but there are likely specific legal criteria for "new" vs "used" - as in what sort of things would cause an item to be certified as "used" vs "new."

I do not know how an instrument which had been sold and returned up to 14 days later would change it's condition.
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blbaumgarn
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 1:46 am    Post subject: Getzen 907DXL new or used trumpet Reply with quote

Going into a music store I have always respected that instruments will be tried in the store itself by people to see if they want to buy I got a new Conn 36 b at 13 in 1963 and the dealer that sold it to my folks for me said, "I couldn't even get out the door before a band director came in with two of his students wanting to know if they could try it in the store. It didn't affect anything for the buying quality. It was the same when I bought my Benge in'74. I tried out three Bachs at the same time. The store owner told me what different people had said about the Bachs but no one had played the Benge yet. Nothing hurt and it didn't affect my choice. I feel that if you walk from the premises with the horn and have it home and then return it, it should be considered a demo and the price be lowered if even a little. Hand the horn off and out the door to several people before it is purchased and it seems silly to sell it as new. That's MHO
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Carly
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote : I am not familiar with anything UK, but there are likely specific legal criteria for "new" vs "used" - as in what sort of things would cause an item to be certified as "used" vs "new." Unquote.

As far as is known it comes under the Trades Descriptions Act 1968, there were some amendments, probably to cover used trumpets but this is the gist of it.

"The Trades Descriptions Act and the Sale of Goods Act both say that goods have to be as described. Therefore for a product to be called "new" there should have been no transfer to anyone else between the shop and the purchaser. "Even if something is bought and then brought back the next day it is still second-hand," said a spokeswoman for the Department of Trade and Industry."


Last edited by Carly on Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Carly
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2020 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brassnose wrote:
Thomann and FMB offer what they call B stock (B Ware). Those are lightly discounted instruments that came back after a trial period. I owned one at some point (bought from Thomann) and there was no difference to a new instrument.

Thomann will specify this on their Website and FMB has a dedicated sub-site for these instruments. They also list display models.


Have used Thomann on occasion but not heard of FMB is there a link? Thanks
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