B&S Chalenger I and I ??

supportlivejazz · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 Jan 2003 Posts: 3757

What's the difference between these two models ( I and II) ? Are they good horns and which is better? Characteristics... pluses... minuses? Thanks.
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supportlivejazz · Heavyweight Member Joined: 05 Jan 2003 Posts: 3757

Ooops. Two LLs in Challenger...

And.. Challenger I and Challenger II.
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JeffTheHornGuy · Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:42 pm Post subject:

I have a Challenger II elaboration model, and I can tell you that it is a fantastic horn for jazz. You can use it for legit and orchestral stuff, but its clearly suited for jazz work. I can't tell you much about the Challenger I's because I have not played any.
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brassjunky · Posted: Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:07 pm Post subject:

I have played both. I seem to remember that the I are light weight, the II's are medium weight. They are copies of bach strad 37 horns.
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horntooter · Veteran Member Joined: 12 Nov 2012 Posts: 120

I've play tested both but owned neither. I thought both played very well, but the II just really stood out. Range, sound, intonation, etc. all came very easy on the II. I can't speak to the physical differences, but the II is a real player!

Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887

I believe that the Challenger 1 and 2 have the same valve section. The 1 has a paper thin bell, while the 2 has a standard weight bell. The 2 has a more open leadpipe than the 1. Those are all the difference that I know of. There might be more.

derekthor · Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:42 am Post subject:

I used to own a Challenger I until I sold it to a student. Very good trumpet, nice sound, excellent build quality, good intonation. The weekend I bought it, I tried out something like ten different Bach 37s, none of which I particularly liked. It's a pretty versatile horn depending on the mouthpiece you're using. Over the period of time that I owned it, I did lots of concert band playing with the army, and spent a month playing lead in a big band.

I then bought a Challenger II, although not the 37 model. It was the 3125 model, large bore, based on the Bach 25. All the positives I mentioned above were there, but with more core to the sound. Very even resistance throughout the range of the instrument.

I've also spent some time with the Chris Jaudes model, the JBX. It's another one that's worth checking out. I believe it's based off a 43 bell with a few other tweaks. I practiced on it for about an hour, and enjoyed every minute of it. My roommate took it out on a gig that night (it was on loan from a store) and really liked it as well.

B&S horns tend to go used pretty cheap, I've noticed. You'll easily get your money's worth out of one if you go that route.

PS get a Challenger II.

andrew.baxter@mac.com · Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:05 pm Post subject:

The Challenger I is a cheaper instrument, both in cost and material. It may be slightly lighter than a II but that's just coincidence as it's not intended to be a light instrument. It's a good trumpet, but not great.

The Challenger II however is in a completely different league. B&S knew they'd got it right with this trumpet and went to town making lots of different models for different playing situations. Some are lightweight such as the JBX that has been mentioned and the Elaboration, which I own. Some are heavier, some with yellowbrass bells, some goldbrass.

I've played dozens of B&S trumpets, and they are my weapon of choice on any gig. Only yesterday I was at the shop trying Schilkes, Kanstuls, Shagerls, Bachs, Yamahas etc but every time I returned to a B&S Challenger II it just felt amazing.

Sadly I'm on no commission but I strongly recommend you try a Challenger II (skip the I) and I think you'll be impressed.
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B&S 3138/2 Bb
B&S 3137/2 Bb
B&S 3143/2 Bb
B&S 3137 Bb
B&S EXB eXquisite
B&S 3136/2 C
B&S 3116/2 Eb
B&S 3117JH Eb
B&S 3131/2 Bb/A Piccolo
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Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887

Andrew, I would be interested in you elaborating about why the Challenger 1 is " a cheaper instrument, both in cost and material".

andrew.baxter@mac.com · Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:35 am Post subject:

Sure. The cost bit speaks for itself so let's look at the material. Firstly, the valves. They are similar, but the I isn't as silky smooth as the II. It might be something as simply as the material used for the spring, but they grate slightly. I've had 3 Challenger I trumpets and they were all the same.

Secondly the bell. It doesn't ring as well as the II. I believe it could be machine made but that is pure speculation based on the lack of refinement at the seam, which is faultless on the hand built IIs.

Finally the lead pipe. It is not as open as on the II. My thoughts on this could be a result of the other things I've mentioned, but having put a lead pipe intended for a II onto a I and things improving significantly I'm happy to speculate that they are not using the same pipes on both.

None of the above has any factual evidence from B&S themselves, purely my own experience of these trumpets, which over the years has been substantial.
_________________
There are no chords that can't be improved by adding a double high C!

B&S 3138/2 Bb
B&S 3137/2 Bb
B&S 3143/2 Bb
B&S 3137 Bb
B&S EXB eXquisite
B&S 3136/2 C
B&S 3116/2 Eb
B&S 3117JH Eb
B&S 3131/2 Bb/A Piccolo
B&S 3141/2 Cornet
B&S 3145 Flugel

Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887

Andrew, as far as I know, and I could be wrong, the valve sections are the same. I recently purchased a replacement valve for the Challenger 1, and the part number was the same for both the Challenger 1 and 2.

The bells are in fact different. One is a very lightweight bell (Challenger 1), but still made from one piece of brass. The Challenger 2 has a thicker gauge bell. I assume made from 1 piece of brass as well. The different bells on both the stock Challenger 2 as well as the variations are what give these models a different, but not necessarily better sound. The Challenger 1 bell is much lighter than a standard Bach 37, and you can tell by the sound. It is also very easily damaged. Some people will like it, some won't.

The lead pipes are different as you mentioned. The 1 having a smaller lead pipe (copy of Bach 25) than the 2.

My point here is that it is a matter of opinion which horn is "better" even though B&S markets one horn as being inferior and charging less. It is simply a question of marketing. Anybody interested in this brand should try both, and decide accordingly.

I have 2 Challenger 1 horns. One is stock, the other has an old Bach bell, one piece. Now the horns have very different sound s from each other.

andrew.baxter@mac.com · Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:02 am Post subject:

I couldn't agree with you more, and you speak with far more fact based authority than I do. One should test both, and against other brands.

Whilst I do believe that the Challenger I is a good player - I've owned 3 and used all of them for professional engagements, I do however still maintain that when a manufacturer suggests one of their models is inferior to another, and prices said models accordingly, there is a reason for it.

May I ask, did you choose to put the Bach bell on your B&S or was it part of a repair?
_________________
There are no chords that can't be improved by adding a double high C!

B&S 3138/2 Bb
B&S 3137/2 Bb
B&S 3143/2 Bb
B&S 3137 Bb
B&S EXB eXquisite
B&S 3136/2 C
B&S 3116/2 Eb
B&S 3117JH Eb
B&S 3131/2 Bb/A Piccolo
B&S 3141/2 Cornet
B&S 3145 Flugel

Irving · Heavyweight Member Joined: 11 Feb 2003 Posts: 1887

I put the bell on the B&S because I had it lying around, and wanted to see what it would sound like.

Manuel de los Campos · Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:21 pm Post subject:

The B&S 3137 Challenger I is a good horn, a copy of the Bach 180-37 but the B&S costs 1/2 of the Bach for a reason...

I had the opportunity to play testing both horns and the Bach turned out to be a far better horn. And she should be!

You get what you pay for
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Crazy Finn · Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2015 1:19 pm Post subject:

On the other hand, if you're not in love with Bach Strads, you might like the B&S.

I once tried about a dozen C trumpets (not my favorite horn, admittedly) looking for one that I liked. The Bachs all elicited the typical shrug and eye roll - as in "yeah, I've already fought that battle for four years and I'm much happier after the divorce. I'm not going back there again." The B&S C trumpet (Challenger II... something) was actually quite nice.
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Manuel de los Campos · Posted: Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:35 am Post subject:

Buffet Crampon USA · New Member Joined: 20 Nov 2013 Posts: 3

Good day, fellow Trumpet Heralders!

A lot of good solid information regarding these horns. If I could just offer some information in response to the original post here for clarity. FYI, the following information is based on the North American market. Also, I will use a silver plated instrument for comparison purposes only but B&S offers many other finishes.

3137-S Challenger I vs. 3137/2-S Challenger II Bb trumpets:

Raw Materials: 100% identical - and from the same sheet metal supplied to the German Automotive industry. Also, B&S does not outsource any of its brass operation so everything is made from these raw materials in-house into the finished product.

Bore - both have a .459" ML bore although you have an option for a .462" L bore within the Challenger II series.

Bell - Both material and production process is identical to create these one-piece bells which are made in the traditional hands-on way with hand-hammering and annealing all by skilled craftsmen who have gone through our apprenticeship program (minimum of 3 years). 3137-S features a 4.782" #37 bell flare in yellow or gold (rose) brass while the 3137/2-S features a 4.921" #37 bell flare in yellow or gold (rose) brass with alternative bell flares - #43 (3143/2), #72 (3172/2), or #25 (3125/2). This difference of a 1/4 inch diameter accounts for the weight difference of the bell.

Valves and Valve block - Identical from one to the other, including springs. Exceptions are in the case of boring ports/knuckles for the .462" bore option in the 3137/2-S, also some 3137/2-S models offer vented 1st and 3rd valves such as the 3172/2, and the top cap in-lay material on the 3137-S is black rubber while it is black felt on the 3137/2-S. Although this might be aesthetic, it is more of a comfort and feeling preference.

Lead Pipe - 3137-S features the gold (rose) brass material while the 3137/2-S features a yellow brass pipe with the gold (rose) brass as an option. Ideal for intonation purposes, the lead pipes have slightly different tapers, although they are completely different overall designs to match precisely with the entire instrument so they will feel very different due to many other features. Also, the 3137-S features a standard lead pipe while the 3137/2-S offers the option of a standard or reverse pipe.

Features:
-water keys - 3137-S features 1 water key on main tuning slide while 3137/2-S features 2 - main tuning slide and 3rd valve slide
-slides: 3137/2-S features valve slide o-ring silencers while the 3137-S does not.
-3rd slide stops - 3137-S features a standard rod stop while the 3137/2-S features a screw stop that can be kicked out to reach the low F.
-top valve cap in-lays - as mentioned above, the 3137-S has rubber and 3137/2-S has felt.
-accessories - identical
-mouthpiece - 3137-S comes with a B&S 7C. 3137/2-S comes with a B&S 1.5C
-case - 3137-S comes with a single trumpet hard wood-shell case with room for accessories/mutes. 3137/2-S comes with a double trumpet hard wood-shell case.

Finishes:

Challenger I:
3137-S - silver plated
3137-L - clear lacquer
3137-GL - gold lacquer
3137-SG - silver plated with gold trim

Challenger II:
3137/2-S - silver plated
3137/2-L - clear lacquer

Disclaimer - you can special order any finish we offer in B&S trumpet line as well, including gold plating but above are the catalog offerings for these models

Pricing - From a consumer standpoint, I understand where the phrase "you get what you pay for" applies to many products. From a production standpoint, it is the complete opposite. There are many facets that go into pricing of B&S trumpets (or any manufacturer) including R&D, economy, material/labor costs, overhead, etc. As you now know from above, the Challenger II series allows you to have the options between bell flares, lead pipes, bores, a double case, features, etc. For this reason, it is priced differently from the 3137 Challenger I.

These instruments are manufactured at the same facility but are designed for very different players. Play them and find out for yourself which Challenger YOU prefer.

Full B&S trumpet includes:
Challenger I
Challenger II
Challenger II Custom
X-Series - Artist-inspired models

Stop by and check them out first hand at ITG in Columbus next month!

For more information, visit www.b-and-s.com

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Warren Kus
High Brass Product Specialist
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3172/2-S - B&S Challenger II Bb trumpet
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3131/2-S - B&S Challenger II piccolo trumpet
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robbrand · Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 3:31 am Post subject:

Great reply, thanks. I'm considering a B&S for an upgrade in the next few months and this is very helpful. I just wish one could get the same detailed responses out of some other manufacturers!

Paul.Trumpet · Posted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 8:50 am Post subject:

Be careful about the model year, the Buffet Challenger two is lighter and much more versatile than the old heavy big bell models.

The old weakness of a tiring high register is gone.

I tried a Buffet 2015 made 3137/2LRS and it was a little less perfectly finished than I would like (basically overplated with thick bright silver) and it was totally different to play than the same number tried before. Valve alignment was already perfect. It easily beat everything else in the shop for a one trumpet does all solution.

I was in John Packers and tried it against a few old (used) favourties; a Schilke S32, Yamaha 6345G, Bach 37, Getzen Vax, Courtois 307 and it always felt better to play again.

It might not suit you (say the grip or the valve feel)! Best to try one out if you can, but don't spend your life worrying about whether you play best on that horn...or another...

invisiblehand · Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:13 am Post subject:

Perhaps a silly question, but if you're buying a used horn, are the Challenger I and Challenger II horns labeled differently? Am I correct in thinking that the model number on the side of the valve casing will be 3137 and 31372 respectively?

Thanks.
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