Sovereign problems again

Louise Finch · Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 9:33 am Post subject: Sovereign problems again

Hi

My Sovereign is driving me mad again.

Kanstul B24 backbore arrived today. Made no real difference to the blow. A bit more open, but still odd blow.

I noticed two things today. The first I've noticed before and the second only today, and maybe they are linked.

The first is that this cornet has an affect on my embouchure. It is hard to work out what exactly is going on, but rather than feeling my corners firming and maybe lip curl as I ascend in register (I have no idea really what I do or what embouchure style I use), my embouchure seems flat and static, as if I am having to use mouthpiece pressure to ascend. Twice I have actually felt the mouthpiece press on my left front tooth through my lips on a note above the stave, which is ridiculous for me, as I am not a player that uses a lot of mouthpiece pressure. I don't think that it is a case of bottoming out, rather too much pressure with insufficient pucker. It is not a technique iasue, although I'm sure I have plenty of faults lol, as my embouchure is normal when I switch to one of my other instruments. I am wondering whether it is resistance keeping my lips out of the cup, combined with subconscious pressure to compensate, or it is linked with the second thing I've noticed.

I cannot reach the third trigger on any cornet. With my Xeno, I rest the bell section against my left index finger knuckle and cup my fingers round with little or no pressure on the third valve casing. My Sovereign is uncomfortable to hold with my tiny hands and I've noticed that I am actually gripping the 3rd valve casing to some extent. The dead resppnse of this cornet seems improved when I make the effort to try to hold this cornet more like my Xeno. I am not sure whether I am deadening resonance by holding the third valve casing, which is obviously the casing in which the leadpipe enters, or whether I am simply altering my posture and putting too much pressure on my top lip.

Either way, I seem to have a dead unresponsive maybe stuffy blow, and embouchure issues which I don't have on any other instruments, and haven't had in twenty years of playing.

What is going on here?

Is this too much resistance, over and above that simply of a tighter blow, unusual posture owing to the Sovereign being hard for me to hold, or a mismatch between me and my 3C and the Sovereign.

Anyway, I'd appreciate your thoughts before I try something else.

Why you may ask do I not give up on the Sovereign, since this is the third which I have owned. It is because it is still the standard British Brass Band cornet, and I am determined to conquer it, and secondly, I'd lose too much money by selling it.

Many Thanks

Take Care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

cinci-sop · Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 12:11 pm Post subject:

Hi Lou,
I have read many of your posts, they are always insightful.

I just got a Besson 928 Sovereign a couple days ago. Bought the Eb 924 for myself for Christmas (great present

) I have been experimenting with mouthpieces for a couple days now. Warburton 6XD with a 5* BB, a #2 Pickett BB, a Warburton 6BC with a 7BC BB, Wick S (the only Wicks I have at this point) a CG Personal, a Bach 7c (everyone has one of those I bet) and the Alliance 3b that came with it. The one thing I noticed was that all the "long" shank mouthpieces seem to play really bad. Kind of dead sounding, not real good articulation and just don't feel right. The 3 "short" shanked, Wick S (like the sound but to small), Alliance 3b (to big a diameter) and the Warburton 6BC/7BC (just not a good fit) seem to play the best. I don't like any of them but they seem to play better. (I'm in the market for a Heritage 4B) I don't know if this helps at all but I thought I would throw it out there.
Kevin
_________________
Besson Sovereign 924R Eb Cornet - Stork 3SC
Besson Sovereign 928 Bb Cornet - Stork 3A
Lawler SA Cornet
Schilke B5 Trumpet - Stork 3B

Richard III · Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 12:16 pm Post subject:

With the issue of the embouchure change with that MP combination, I had a similar thing happen the first time I tried a Wick 4B. I had been playing a Wick 4 and the 4B just made me focus my air stream in a way different way to be able to play with that MP. Different than any other set up I had experienced. I avoided it after that. Now why? Maybe because in that cornet it inserts way less than all other MPs? I've tried it in a Conn (Pre-1958) which has a larger leadpipe and it inserts quite far with no issue playing it.
_________________
Richard

Conn 22B Trumpet
York Eminence Model 4028 Cornet
1903 Conn The Wonder Cornet

cornet74 · Heavyweight Member Joined: 13 May 2013 Posts: 504

My post may sound trite, but with a VB 3C top and more open backbore perhaps the mpc and horn are mismatched. For what it's worth I could never find the right mpc for my 921, and I went thru quite a few and different makes and models. Playing above and below the staff always felt insecure. The only register which never posed a problem was notes within the staff. And the triggers in the 921 were all but impossible. Perhaps the "best" mpc on that horn was a Yamaha 13E4 or a Wick 3B. I'm not sure what bore size your Sov is but mine was .465; a bit of a strange in between, larger than the corners that preceded the 921 and smaller than the horns which came after the 921. Strangely, for some recording applications I once used a long shank 13B4 and it felt closer to playing well.

I wish you luck on that horn. I've pretty much given up on the 921. I do think the bore is mismatched to the other dimensions of the horn. And I suspect the ML version was a better playing instrument

Thank you.
_________________
Now:
Yamaha 203 Tenor Horn
Bach, Wick, Yamaha Mouthpieces
Wick Wooden Tenor Horn Straight Mute

googanelli · Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 5:57 pm Post subject:

I'm going to talk about the dreaded mouthpiece for a minute.

When you play a deeper, shallower, wider, etc mouthpiece, you change how and where your lips interface (like that?) with the piece. The size of the throat and the horn also have an effect on how YOU have to play the mouthpiece and horn. Yes, we can overcome many of these things and the changes NEEDED often occur naturally just by concentrating on playing the music. What happens is that we become accustomed to how it "feels" to play trumpet, cornet, etc and when we change one of the equations, we notice we sometimes have to do something slightly different to play that new horn. That's why many people stick to one horn and one piece to play all their repatoire. They stop noticing the feelings many times and are able to just concentrate on the sound.

That being said, try to find a mouthpiece that is similar to what you currently are playing. I had Peter Pickett make me a british style mouthpiece after having scanned in my every day piece. I did this so that everything "felt" familiar. It isn't exactly the same, but I don't notice the little things that I am doing naturally by focusing on the sound.

As for how you hold the horn, I also have smaller hands. I've always struggled to get the third slide to move for me. The first time I played a triggered horn, I fell in love. That being said, I don't have triggers on any of my horns currently. Most of my third valve stuff that needs adjusted is usually 2-3 or 1-2-3 combos where I can use my thumb to kick the first slide and it gets the horn closer than no adjustment at all. I've used some alternate fingerings at times to get the note in tune as well.

Hope this helps!

Joe
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I play the same chords over and over.....from a train.

roynj · Heavyweight Member Joined: 19 Oct 2002 Posts: 2065

dmamazon · Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 7:29 pm Post subject:

I just bought a 928 sovereign off of the marketplace about 5/6 weeks ago.

I am going through the SAME thing. There is no reason that the horn, as far as I could tell, should play THAT bad compared to say my other cornet, the Getzen 3850...which in all honesty plays better threefold.

The horn I bought is in amazing condition. As far as I can tell it is almost new. It even came with a custom Besson slide to put the cornet in "A". Wowzers!

There has GOT to be something stupid silly easy to fix these Sovereigns.

Is it Gap related? Because inside the receiver there is DEFINITELY a gap JUST like a trumpet...but when you stick say a Denis Wick 2 cornet mouthpiece inside it instead of a 1/8 gap it is more like a 2 inch gap lol. A fellow bandmate who is a brass tech as well blew my mind...he said that there does exist a "European" shank cornet mouthpiece that is a much narrower shank....but I didnt believe him. Nevertheless there IS a lip or something EXACTLY like a trumpet receiver in the cornet's receiver. I finally took it to a local shop that has a BRAND NEW 928 Sovereign on the wall..and guess what..IT HAD THE "GAP" LIP TOO LOL! Yet that new horn on the wall played much better. I let the shop have my horn to try and figure it out...haven't heard from them in a couple weeks(which is usually a bad sign lol).

Anyway, from my playing there has got to be something very EASY to fix these horns. The mouthpieces I use on it are a Sparx 2, Denis Wick 2, Denis Wick RW2B, and a Wick Heritage 2b. They all play very stuffy, uneven, and bad on it...yet play wonderful on the Getzen.

I'm with you Lou. I play principal cornet in a competitive brass band here in the U.S.(we just won 2nd section at NABBA) I am NOT giving up on this horn and am determined to get to the bottom of this and make this horn work! I can tell there is a great horn in there...what's the key! These are supposed to be Brass Band horns! I mean for God's sake I also have a 1960s King 600 Student Cornet that plays circles around the recently purchased Sovereign...this is supposed to be a MUCH better horn!!!

Anyway...if ANYONE knows the magic key please help lol!

David Mazon

Crazy Finn · Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 7:40 pm Post subject:

dmamazon · Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 7:51 pm Post subject:

Turd Polish LOL!!!

qcm · Posted: Fri May 01, 2015 10:49 pm Post subject:

Lou,

Have you had the alignment of your valves checked?

That could possibly be causing the stuffiness.

-Dave
_________________
Dave Edwards

Kanstuls, LA Benges and a Selmer picc.

brassjunky · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 12:51 am Post subject:

Two cornet players in my brass band play Sovereigns and have to make all sorts of adjustments to get them in tune above the stave. I think you have to accept they are just not great horns. I think they have inherent and variable defects, which is why you sometimes get a good one. I play a Sovereign flugel and intonation is only just manageable. Most players stay away from them too.
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Cannonball 789RSL
YFH635ST Flugel
Blessing Artist Cornet (1947)

Mike Prestage · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 1:11 am Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 2:24 am Post subject:

Hi Guys

Thank you very much for your replies, which are really appreciated. I am a little short of time this morning, so please excuse my brief replies to everyone.

Take Care

Lou
_________________
Trumpets:
Yamaha 8335 Xeno II
Bach Strad 180ML/37
B&H Oxford
Kanstul F Besson C
Yamaha D and D/Eb
- James R New Custom 3Cs
Flugel:
Bach Strad 183 - Bach 3CFL
Cornets:
Yamaha Neo + Xeno
Bach Strad 184ML
B&H Imperial
- Kanstul Custom 3Cs

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 2:33 am Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 2:34 am Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 2:35 am Post subject:

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Louise Finch · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 3:00 am Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 3:01 am Post subject:

Louise Finch · Posted: Sat May 02, 2015 3:05 am Post subject: Re: Sovereign problems again