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Sovereign problems again


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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crazy Finn wrote:
Andy Del wrote:
Here's a thought - send your cornet to Jim Backer at Osmun and get him to do his optimisation routine on it, pull it to bits and put it back properly with no dags or solder blobs and the valves aligned as best possible.

Of course it takes some $$$. Crowd source it. If every tpt herald member put in a dollar, you'd have it done quickly and most likely have change for a new Schilke cornet as well!

Then we'd all know the truth about these cornets. (see? I didn't even curse!)

Heck, I'd pitch in!

If they don't to the "Blueprinting" thing with Besson cornets, yet - maybe that would be a good new area for them. There sure seem to be some ones out there with issues to resolve. They might even get inundated with cornets from across the pond.

.... on second thought, maybe this isn't a good idea.


Hi

Having someone in the UK who offers this service for all new trumpet and cornets, would be a great idea.

All the best

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cornet74 wrote:
For what it's worth, I had my 921 Sov out the other day and was playing it with my short shank Curry 5C true 27 drill mouthpiece and the Sov.was considerably brighter than the same mouthpiece with my Getzen and Bach. The Curry 5C made the Sov. the brightest of all three cornets.

I only mention this as you seem to favor a Bach C cup for cornet. Could this cup size be part of the problem?

Hi cornet74

Thank you very much for your idea. You may very well be right, I just don't know. Irrespective of the sound, my 3C works well on my Bach 184ML, Xeno and Imperial, and has worked well on every other cornet I have tried, except the Sovereign. Maybe they are just not compatible with each other, I really do not know. If my 3C played well and was over bright, I'd have a good reason for not playing it, but I can't get it playing well enough to even make a proper decision.


I do note that you have other traditional mpcs. in your signature as well as mentioning that you've used Wicks as well.

Yes, I have a Yamaha 16E, and some Currys and Denis Wicks. I was however hoping to be able to use this cornet for other applications other than brass band, and would like to work out why my 3C doesn't work well with this cornet.

So perhaps my above point is moot in your case.

No it isn't, since I insist on trying to get my 3C to work.

Thank you.

Thank you very much to you.

Take Care

Lou

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GordonH wrote:
"This answers everything. A company that makes a precision instrument yet thinks it's good enough to put oversize felts in so they can wear down to the right thickness needs its collective head read. "

Like Schilke then (those green felts).

My gut feeling about the 928 is that if you read the document explaining how it was designed it was all honeymoon period testing by people coming from very stuffy instruments.

I have found the 928 to be too free blowing and require a mouthpiece that can tame it a little. However, the response has always felt a bit uneven to me. Effort levels required for certain notes in a scale seem to be erratically different. The Yamaha cornets feel more even, but are not without their issues.


Hi GordonH

Thank you very much. I find your post particularly interesting. Like you, my gut feeling is that the 928 is free blowing, but I always wonder whether it feels dead and unresponsive for me, because I am trying to play a mouthpiece with a too small throat and backbore for the cornet. This may explain why I, as a player who is playing the Sovereign with a tight set-up in cornet mouthpiece terms, feel that I want to open up my mouthpiece, whereas you mention the Sovereign requiring a mouthpiece to tame it. I just don't know.

Thanks very much again for your thoughts.

Take Care

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

I've finally decided what I should have done originally, and that is to go with either a Denis Wick or Alliance mouthpiece on my Sovereign.

Every aspect of my mouthpiece is different to the supplied Alliance 3B, insertion amount, shank length, backbore, throat, cup and rim.

Even if I open up my two piece basically a Bach copy mouthpiece, it will still insert a lot further than a Denis Wick, and have a longer shank.

I'm going to send a Denis Wick 4B and Alliance 3B to a UK mouthpiece tech, and ask him whether there is any significant difference, and if so, which to combine with my 3C rim, as a screw rim set-up.

I hate Denis Wick rims, especially how they fall away less to the outside, and I just cannot find a size that fits me. The 4B feels too small, and the 3B is probably a little big.

All the best

Lou
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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
I hate Denis Wick rims...


Indeed. You have a lot of company on that score. I've said here before that I think that if somebody (preferably Mark Curry, but anyone would do) would take a Wick cornet mouthpiece, scan it, and put a decent rim on it, they'd break sales records. I have often thought of doing what you just described myself, but I don't play cornet often enough currently to worry about it.

What I'd really like is a Wick no letter and a wick B, both in whatever size would match up best underneath Mark's 3C. rim. That would be a winner. I would prefer not to deal with a screw rim setup, but just have them made up as single piece mouthpieces with those attributes.
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Last edited by RandyTX on Tue May 12, 2015 7:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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cinci-sop
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:
Hi

I've finally decided what I should have done originally, and that is to go with either a Denis Wick or Alliance mouthpiece on my Sovereign.

Every aspect of my mouthpiece is different to the supplied Alliance 3B, insertion amount, shank length, backbore, throat, cup and rim.

Even if I open up my two piece basically a Bach copy mouthpiece, it will still insert a lot further than a Denis Wick, and have a longer shank.

I'm going to send a Denis Wick 4B and Alliance 3B to a UK mouthpiece tech, and ask him whether there is any significant difference, and if so, which to combine with my 3C rim, as a screw rim set-up.

I hate Denis Wick rims, especially how they fall away less to the outside, and I just cannot find a size that fits me. The 4B feels too small, and the 3B is probably a little big.

All the best

Lou


Hi Lou,
I just got my 4b Heritage a couple days ago. I like it better than the Alliance 3b. The rim feels a little less sharp than the 3b. The sound seems to be a little less mellow with the Wicks as well. I had no luck with any other piece at all. I agree, the wicks/alliance is the way to go. Hopefully you can get a more likable screw rim on a wicks or alliance. I think that will give you a whole new outlook on the 928. I even tried the British Band short shank backbore/BBC top from Warburton and that really didn't make much difference either.
Good luck Lou
Kevin
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Albert Castillo
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PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2015 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Louise Finch wrote:


I hate Denis Wick rims


Schilke Symphony V3
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qcm
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PostPosted: Fri May 08, 2015 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lou,

Like you, I also hate the standard Denis Wick rims, it's the most uncomfortable rim I've ever played.

However, I do find his wide W rim, to be quite comfortable.

Could this be a viable option for you?

-Dave
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RandyTX wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
I hate Denis Wick rims...


Indeed. You have a lot of company on that score. I've said here before that I think that if somebody (preferably Mark Curry, but anyone would do) would take a Wick cornet mouthpiece, scan it, and put a decent rim on it, they'd break sales records. I have often thought of doing what you just described myself, but I don't pay cornet often enough currently to worry about it.

What I'd really like is a Wick no letter and a wick B, both in whatever size would match up best underneath Mark's 3C. rim. That would be a winner. I would prefer not to deal with a screw rim setup, but just have them made up as single piece mouthpieces with those attributes.


Hi RandyTX

Sounds like a great idea, and I wonder why no one has done it. Would it require permission from Denis Wick? This however doesn't seem to be the case with other mouthpiece copies, or are there rules about producing a modified copies.

Take Care

Lou

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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cinci-sop wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:
Hi

I've finally decided what I should have done originally, and that is to go with either a Denis Wick or Alliance mouthpiece on my Sovereign.

Every aspect of my mouthpiece is different to the supplied Alliance 3B, insertion amount, shank length, backbore, throat, cup and rim.

Even if I open up my two piece basically a Bach copy mouthpiece, it will still insert a lot further than a Denis Wick, and have a longer shank.

I'm going to send a Denis Wick 4B and Alliance 3B to a UK mouthpiece tech, and ask him whether there is any significant difference, and if so, which to combine with my 3C rim, as a screw rim set-up.

I hate Denis Wick rims, especially how they fall away less to the outside, and I just cannot find a size that fits me. The 4B feels too small, and the 3B is probably a little big.

All the best

Lou


Hi Lou,
I just got my 4b Heritage a couple days ago. I like it better than the Alliance 3b. The rim feels a little less sharp than the 3b. The sound seems to be a little less mellow with the Wicks as well. I had no luck with any other piece at all. I agree, the wicks/alliance is the way to go. Hopefully you can get a more likable screw rim on a wicks or alliance. I think that will give you a whole new outlook on the 928. I even tried the British Band short shank backbore/BBC top from Warburton and that really didn't make much difference either.
Good luck Lou
Kevin


Hi Kevin

Thank you very much. I'm going ahead with this, and will post on here how it all turns out.

Take Care

Lou
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Albert Castillo wrote:
Louise Finch wrote:


I hate Denis Wick rims


Schilke Symphony V3


Hi

Thank you very much. I briefly tried one of these on the 927 Sovereign which I used to own, and liked it, so it may very well be worth a further try.

Take care

Lou
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Trumpets:
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- James R New Custom 3Cs
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Sat May 09, 2015 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

qcm wrote:
Lou,

Like you, I also hate the standard Denis Wick rims, it's the most uncomfortable rim I've ever played.

However, I do find his wide W rim, to be quite comfortable.

Could this be a viable option for you?

-Dave


Hi Dave

Thank you very much.

I'm however not sure about this. What I don't like about the DW rims, is the fact that they do not fall way enough to the outside. I find this aspect uncomfortable, and that it seems to restrict my embouchure. I do not like the Bach 6 for this same reason. I am therefore not sure whether a wider rim would make a difference, and additionally my preferred DW diameter is the 3, and they only make a 2BW and 4BW.

My preference is for more rounded and narrower rims. I like the Bach 7C rim, but find the Bach 3C a better compromise in terms of endurance. I wouldn't like anything too much wider or flatter, and the Denis Wick rims seem fairly flat and wide enough already, but of course you never know until you try. I find the Heritage models better in this regard, and they may be worth a try or a rim odification, if putting my 3C rim on a DW or Alliance mouthpieces doesn't work.

Thanks again.

Take Care

Lou
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dmamazon
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok...I am beginning to think this(without the turd polish).

We need SOMEONE who has a GREAT PLAYING Besson Sovereign 928 to come forward. Relatively in tune, great sound, accessible high register, beautiful solo tone.

I am wondering what the differences are between his/her instrument and the multitudes of bad ones.

Does it have the "gap ring" or "solder ring"?

How far does a normal Denis Wick mouthpiece into it? What are the insertion measurements for modern pieces....like a Sparx or Bach?

What kind of...and...HOW long of a receiver does it have? How far does a modern cornet mouthpiece insert into it?

Are the valves in good alignment? That's a simple fix!

I am hoping that ...with some input....we can HELP Besson and find a solution for the 1000s of other bad bessons out there...including mine!

From what I can tell...from my instrument...the problem is coming from not a QUALITY issue..all the parts seem great...but a construction or manufacturing issue.

Anyone have a GREAT playing Besson 928 Sovereign out there?
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Try a Wick 3, but one made very recently. Rim is much rounder than previous ones, same with the recent 2.

I suspect they have gone back to the original rim shapes.
The 3 feels like a Mount Vernon 3C rim, but obviously feels bigger due to the undercut.
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Rapier232
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 1:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a Sovereign which was/is a fabulous instrument. Always used Wick mouthpieces. Sold it to a friend when I moved to Tenor Horn. Couldn't fault it.
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cinci-sop
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dmamazon wrote:
Ok...I am beginning to think this(without the turd polish).

We need SOMEONE who has a GREAT PLAYING Besson Sovereign 928 to come forward. Relatively in tune, great sound, accessible high register, beautiful solo tone.

I am wondering what the differences are between his/her instrument and the multitudes of bad ones.

Does it have the "gap ring" or "solder ring"?

How far does a normal Denis Wick mouthpiece into it? What are the insertion measurements for modern pieces....like a Sparx or Bach?

What kind of...and...HOW long of a receiver does it have? How far does a modern cornet mouthpiece insert into it?

Are the valves in good alignment? That's a simple fix!

I am hoping that ...with some input....we can HELP Besson and find a solution for the 1000s of other bad bessons out there...including mine!

From what I can tell...from my instrument...the problem is coming from not a QUALITY issue..all the parts seem great...but a construction or manufacturing issue.

Anyone have a GREAT playing Besson 928 Sovereign out there?


Congrats again on the NABBA win. I play sop in Chapel brass. I have a 928 I bought from Trent Austin a few weeks ago. I think it's a great playing horn. (I am using a Wick 4B Heritage) Plays well, relativity in tune (have not played it with an ensemble yet) and as easy above the staff as the Getzen 3850 I traded in. If you would like to try it sometime let me know. Perhaps you can compare the two and see if there are differences.
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Louise Finch
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi dmamazon

You may very well be right about construction/manufacturing issues, I simply don't know, I haven't personally looked for or found them.

What I personally think is the issue, is mouthpiece compatibility and or insertion amount.

I've looked into mouthpiece insertion a fair amount, and cornets do seem to vary. A lot of cornets (my Bach 184ML is one of the exceptions) do not have an actual gap, but I have found that varying the insertion amount has an equivalent affect.

One of the difficulties with this, is that owing to differences in mouthpiece receiver length, with for example a trumpet which has an actual gap between the end of the mouthpiece and beginning of the end of the leadpipe, depending on the length of the mouthpiece receiver and where the beginning of the leadpipe is in relation to the end of the mouthpiece receiver, you can have the same gap with varying insertion amounts. This is presumably the same with cornets which have no actual gap, and there is probably variation between the distance between the solder ring (presumably this is supposed to be flat) where the leadpipe blends with the mouthpiece receiver, and the top of the mouthpiece receiver.

All that I can say, is the insertion amount of all mouthpieces on my Sovereign, is comparatively less than for my other cornets.

Additionally, there is then the insertion amount of Denis Wick/Alliance mouthpieces. The modern ones insert around 15mm in my Sovereign, whereas other mouthpieces such as Curry, insert 19mm. A 4mm difference in insertion is a huge amount.

In my opinion, the Sovereign seems to play best with a Denis Wick or Alliance mouthpiece. The other characteristic of Denis Wick/Alliance mouthpieces, is a very open throat and presumably an open backbore. The open throat presumably balances the greater resistance produced by the lesser insertion amount.

If this lesser insertion amount is critical to the playability of the Sovereign, to avoid it being very stuffy it needs to be combined with a more open throat and probably also a more open backbore. My gut feeling is that to get the best out of the Sovereign, it requires mouthpieces with the combination of a lesser insertion amount, larger throat and more open backbore.

This is my gut feeling anyhow.

If you read the following article which explains how the design of the 928 Sovereign was decided, the one thing not mentioned, is what mouthpiece(s) the testers were using. If they were all playing Denis Wick mouthpieces, or mouthpieces of a pretty similar design, this may explain why the players who are having good results with their Sovereigns happen to be playing them with Denis Wicks.

http://www.smithwatkins.com/pdf/bhfeb09.pdf

Anyway, my next step is to have my rim put on either a Denis Wick 4B or Alliance 3B (I'm going to ask the mouthpiece tech if he can ascertain the difference between the two, as they both have a quoted cup diameter of 16.5mm), and see whether it makes a difference to my opinion of my Sovereign. I'll update this thread with how it turns out.

Take Care

Lou
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Kanstul F Besson C
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GordonH
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Wick 3 was a scaled up version of the 4. The 2 was a separate design. Originally the models were 2,4 and 7.
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Dale Proctor
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll throw this into the mix again...

The first pic is a Wick 4B I bought 5 or 6 years ago from Dillon Music. It didn't insert into my receiver as far as any of my other cornet mouthpieces. The insertion depth difference was significant.

The second pic is a NOS Wick 4 I bought on eBay last November. The packaging appeared to be pretty old, but I have no idea how old the mouthpiece really is. It inserts much farther into the receiver, and matches the depth of my other mouthpieces. The horn (a large bore Bach 184) plays great with it, and the rim is also more comfortable than the 4B.




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RandyTX
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PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2015 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dale, it looks like we have a new contender for "most variability in manufacture" for mouthpieces. Maybe Wick is the new Bach in this category?
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